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Arpeggios Vs Scales
- Thread starter Russ Rodgers
- Start date
I'm just a bass-hobbiest (so probably wrong), but the OP seems like "hair-spitting", between modes and arpeggios.
Aren't modes and arpeggios "two sides of the same coin", with modes focusing on understanding, and arpeggios on muscle-memory?
Or not...
Aren't modes and arpeggios "two sides of the same coin", with modes focusing on understanding, and arpeggios on muscle-memory?
Or not...
All sweeping generalizations are false without context.
I do agree that Modes tend to be overrated in importance.
It's a side effect of scale diagrams being the first thing most bassist encounter
It's very easy to teach the modal patterns,
While identifying their usefulness requires much more investment
And the ROI of arpeggios is far greater
The OP asserts :
"all modes tell you how to do is connect the chord tones with notes that stay in the key"
That's certainly not all modes do, but there is some truth, in the context of creating bass lines that support the harmony.
which is what most bassist are doing most of the time. From that angle, arpeggios are way more useful.
Nah, one is not for understanding while the other for muscle memory.
Both are musical patterns to be understood as sound first and foremost
(followed by execution -"muscle memory" , then name and notation)
But yeah in general arpeggios trump modes in utility.
And in my experience the choice of 'connecting notes' rarely has to be locked to a mode.
I do agree that Modes tend to be overrated in importance.
It's a side effect of scale diagrams being the first thing most bassist encounter
It's very easy to teach the modal patterns,
While identifying their usefulness requires much more investment
And the ROI of arpeggios is far greater
The OP asserts :
"all modes tell you how to do is connect the chord tones with notes that stay in the key"
That's certainly not all modes do, but there is some truth, in the context of creating bass lines that support the harmony.
which is what most bassist are doing most of the time. From that angle, arpeggios are way more useful.
Nah, one is not for understanding while the other for muscle memory.
Both are musical patterns to be understood as sound first and foremost
(followed by execution -"muscle memory" , then name and notation)
But yeah in general arpeggios trump modes in utility.
And in my experience the choice of 'connecting notes' rarely has to be locked to a mode.
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Modes shouldn’t really be looked at in the context of their key. That’s where most people start, and where a lot of folks get fixated.
They are to ultimately be seen as independent scales that provide a unique sound.
It usually starts with people mapping modes to chords - like the mixolydian goes with dominant 7th chords, etc...
The problem is that locks you back into keys again and keeps you thinking diatonically.
The magic comes when you think of a mode as a completely different scale entity, with it’s own unique sound quality. Then, you may have a min 7 chord, and in your head you hear a “mixolydian sound” so you play that scale to achieve a certain affect.
Most of the really cool soloing that you hear, where something unexpected happens, or causes tension, is due to a unique usage of modes over a passage.
They are to ultimately be seen as independent scales that provide a unique sound.
It usually starts with people mapping modes to chords - like the mixolydian goes with dominant 7th chords, etc...
The problem is that locks you back into keys again and keeps you thinking diatonically.
The magic comes when you think of a mode as a completely different scale entity, with it’s own unique sound quality. Then, you may have a min 7 chord, and in your head you hear a “mixolydian sound” so you play that scale to achieve a certain affect.
Most of the really cool soloing that you hear, where something unexpected happens, or causes tension, is due to a unique usage of modes over a passage.
This.
One of the best videos I saw from SBL was him trying to reframe the modes. Instead of practicing them diatonically, drone the root note and play all the different modes that originate from that note. And listen to the sounds and emotion they generate from there.
Both are important. I find focusing on chord tones makes it easier for me to navigate through chord changes. I had an ensemble instructor at Berklee (a trombonist) who told us his approach was to think chord tones and connect them any way that sounds good. Those connecting notes inevitably fill out modes or other chord scales.
Agreed.
35-40 years of playing and I still can't keep the modes straight and I don't think I am missing out.
I understand Chords, and when presented with a chart with chord symbols I know what chord tones are important to play, but ask me what mode to play over a specific chord you'd get a blank look from me.
I know tons of guys who somehow got the idea into their head that modes are the path to being a great player and those guys have them all memorized but its not reflective in their playing
Yeah I saw that video and it really helps to understand the quality of the different modes and the feeling they invoke
Benjamin Earl
Commercial User
- Dec 31, 2008
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I use modes as a way to be more precise with my melodic color/flavor. Sure, you can play chromatically and make many different non-chord tone choices as a way to "connect" the chord tones. However, you will likely sound melodically unfocused. Obviously, this may be what you want, but more often you want to play a line that is recognizable or compliments the chords and the song. I use color and flavor as an example of how to use modes. If you are a painter and use all of the colors at once, then you will end up with a mixture of brown (looks like crap). If you are a cook and use all of the spices at once, then you will end up with a dish that tastes like crap. Adding the right amount and combination of color/flavor in between chord tones will make your line more melodically potent. Modes make this easier.
As for modes vs arpeggios. I agree with the thought that they are "two sides of the same coin". Sure triads or seventh arpeggios can be modally ambiguous, but that ends as soon as you add extended chord tones. You literally play every scale tone with a 7 note 13th arpeggio. I agree with the OP to start with triads and seventh arpeggios, but I think the real golden nugget is found in the modes and stacking triads and seventh arpeggios to reach extended chord tones.
As for modes vs arpeggios. I agree with the thought that they are "two sides of the same coin". Sure triads or seventh arpeggios can be modally ambiguous, but that ends as soon as you add extended chord tones. You literally play every scale tone with a 7 note 13th arpeggio. I agree with the OP to start with triads and seventh arpeggios, but I think the real golden nugget is found in the modes and stacking triads and seventh arpeggios to reach extended chord tones.
I've been focussing on this exact thing this week, and I agree it has opened up a new world of sound. Even just a simple 1-5-9 sounds gorgeous to me
Here is how I made modes stick for me....
I had these realization:
1. All the modes in any key use all the same notes
2. Modes are just the major scale starting on different tones of the scale. If you know the intervals of the major scale you can work through the modes.
3. A big hurdle for me was trying to fit the mode to the mode name. When I started to call the by their scale tones (mode 1, mode 2, mode 3, etc) they stuck. Knowing the names is not important. I still don't know the proper names for the modes. Dropping the names and going with a number makes it easier to connect to a chord progression. If you play a I-IV-V you grab modes 1, 4 and 5 and go to work.
The exercise I used to learn the modes and make them useful.
1. Play the major scale on the root (Mode 1).
2. Next I played the major scale starting on the 2nd (mode 2) until I could recall it.
3-7 Then I did the other 5 scale tones in the same manner
8 picked a key and worked through some chord progressions playing more than just three notes. Paid attention to how it all connected. This was an eye opener and showed my why I sometime hit a sour note when doing expanded improv.
You think this because you and many others see modes as some kind of destination. It's only a waypoint.
Also, I'm not a fan of the "use X mode over Y chord" approach. That's not what it's about.
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That's where I'm coming from, but some posts here suggest that some songs diverge from the conventional modes in classical western harmony (apologies to the more learned if my vocabulary is a bit off).
With how my mind thinks, sort of..... With arpeggios I think chord triad. With modes I think it is the map of notes around that arpeggio/triad I can use to stay in key. Both are just rearranging and picking notes from the major scale of the key.
The Level of Irony you've managed to insert into a single post is sublime. How do you know what most bass players are doing most of the time, such that you feel they usually need to play arpeggios?
I play a lot of basslines. I know a lot of arpeggios. I'm rarely playing arpeggios most of the time. Most basslines that I've learned and played in jazz, pop and R&B tend to be scalar in nature. For example, the bassline to Stevie Wonders "I wish" is a pure F# lydian scale, with some added passing tones. And because it's just a scale, you can call it whatever mode you want. But, there's not one arpeggio in the line.
I can give dozens of examples of scalar bassline in songs you already know about. Playing a bunch of arpeggios in a walking bassline is about the most boring thing I can think of. If you listen to nearly anybody worth listening to playing a walking line, you can hear the scales.
My own thought is that people need to approach music more holistically and not in the usual binary, "it's this or that" (0 or 1) mentality.
Are there basslines that use arpeggios? Of course.
Are there basslines that use scales? Of course.
Are there basslines that use both? Of course.
So how do you draw the conclusion that one is somehow more important than the other?
I haven't discussed improvisation, which throws all the binary thinking out the window. I would hope anyway.
I don't understand these scale vs. arpeggio discussions. It's ALL important. Now Russ Rodgers is sort of local to me and I have considered studying with him. His approach leads me to think I'm not going to be doing that.
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Age old debate. IMO modes for treble clef stuff and arpeggio (chord tones) for the bass clef harmony stuff. When they start paying you to play you will know how and when to use both. If you are still a hobby bassists modes are just stealing practice time that can be used for other things.
IMO.
IMO.
Modes are for playing music. Arpeggios are for playing music. The whole idea that these two concepts are for different things is misguided. Ultimately you want all this stuff to lead to the same thing, i.e. you want to get your ideas out and be able to understand what you are doing.
To me, it's absolutely two sides of the same coin. But I've been here long enough to know you're never gonna get people to wrap their heads around that.
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This ^^^ ! Chords and modes are something that we need be able to hear and sing in the first place. This is ear training and one does not need a bass for this; it can be done anywhere, away from the instrument (a keyboard is handy, though, to help and check intonation; a piano app on smartphone does the job, too).
