As a bassist how do you work on hearing/feeling the changes?

[nonohmic]

I've been trying to work on hearing/feeling the changes rather than viewing them as a sequence of chords.

Wondering how folks work on internalizing the changes. Do you use piano/guitar? Chords on the bass? Or do you just get to know them through playing appregios/walking bass? Or perhaps you're awesome and internalize them after listening to the song once.

Curious what people have found a useful approach, given the limited chordal range of a normal 4 string bass.

Thanks,

 

[JimmyM]

I wouldn’t say first time, but I can usually get them embedded in my brain after 4 or 5 listens. But it took a few years of work to get there, and I’ve definitely used guitar and piano to help out. Arpeggios also helped, but just playing chords in different keys and inversions was probably the most beneficial to me.

 

[mikeoso]

I'm originally a guitar player, so I usually take that route to learn a piece. Get the chords on guitar, thump the roots on bass, then decide on a bass line to work it.

 

[nonohmic]

I wouldn’t say first time, but I can usually get them embedded in my brain after 4 or 5 listens. But it took a few years of work to get there, and I’ve definitely used guitar and piano to help out. Arpeggios also helped, but just playing chords in different keys and inversions was probably the most beneficial to me.

I have tried piano but I really do feel way more at home on bass. A 24 fret 4 string means I can work ok through the chords on the bass itself, but I do kind of wish I'd gone 5 string high-C so I could do more inversions.

Wondering how much you think the limited range of chording on a 4 string (i.e., you can get the 10th but that's about it) limits your ability to work on this stuff?

 

[pingvuiini]

This may sound odd but it has worked very well for me: sing the parts! I mean sing the guitar parts, drums, keys, everything. The drums especially help get the groove down, sort of like beat boxing:

Boom--ch--bop--ch--boom--ch-boom-ch-bop--ch (crudely written rendition of When the Levee Breaks intro).

By creating sounds from inside your own self to recreate the sounds of the songs, it is already internalized, so to speak.

 

[JimmyM]

I have tried piano but I really do feel way more at home on bass. A 24 fret 4 string means I can work ok through the chords on the bass itself, but I do kind of wish I'd gone 5 string high-C so I could do more inversions.

Wondering how much you think the limited range of chording on a 4 string (i.e., you can get the 10th but that's about it) limits your ability to work on this stuff?

Good question. It doesn’t limit it much. Maybe you will have difficulty with some chords and not enough strings, but for learning songs it’s ok.

 

[nonohmic]

Good question. It doesn’t limit it much. Maybe you will have difficulty with some chords and not enough strings, but for learning songs it’s ok.

Yeah, I'm probably overthinking it and should just work with what I have. Also iReal book Pro helps.

 

[Leo Smith]

Learn the melody. Or some representation of the melody that sits with the harmony.

Since you mention the iReal book, go listen to actual recordings of the tunes you are learning. Find several versions of each tune. It's going to take some time. As you learn more tunes, the next one will get easier to learn and understand.

 

[NocoLaw]

I am probably not a long way down the road past you (if I am at all). I have played in a few bands for several years, and while I continue to improve, I’ve been OK at learning songs in the sets and the lines, etc., for a while. Ear training is what I’ve been working on a lot for the last 6-12 months. I’m envious of the folks who can rip out cool lines as Jimmy describes, just hearing the progression a few times. The best strategy I’ve come up with is singing as I practice scales, arpeggios, and lines in songs. For me, associating numbers and relative position is far easier (which I have to imagine is the case for anyone who doesn’t suffer from a block when the Numbers System is brought up) over trying to hear chords by name; and singing the numbers out loud is very effective for that association. I sing the key by name on the root (A, A#m, etc.) and the rest in numbers; always calling the key by name when I hit the root (any octave included). I have noticed that I pick up progressions faster and faster, but it’s hard to gauge progress. I am fortunate to have a local “anything goes” jam, which I don’t get to play every month, but I anchored as the sole bassist in December, March, and tonight, and it went really well - best yet. I was able to find the progressions, even trickier ones with the less common chords, much faster. I was about 75% on catching the whole progression by the second chorus, and I had a lot more fun with fills, connective moves, and other embellishments beyond the root/5s than I ever have in a jam. That was really affirming of the work.

And I don’t really play full chords on bass. I’ve done it on guitar or mandolin; but I don’t know that it has helped much. Hearing the chord/root is what helps my mind the most, and singing out loud is the best I’ve found for that. I used to sing in my head, but my guitarist (who has a music degree and masters in guitar instruction) convinced me to actually sing out loud. That makes a difference I don’t even understand.

 

[nonohmic]

Learn the melody. Or some representation of the melody that sits with the harmony.

Since you mention the iReal book, go listen to actual recordings of the tunes you are learning. Find several versions of each tune. It's going to take some time. As you learn more tunes, the next one will get easier to learn and understand.

Yes, agree with all this. It's good advice.

I guess my question is more a technical one. Like how do you then get that sound in your head through your hands on onto an instrument. As a bassist do you go to the piano first, or bass chords? Or do you just start walking along?

 

[Leo Smith]

Like how do you then get that sound in your head through your hands on onto an instrument.

Ear training and some trial and error, I suppose. Another situation where it gets easier the more you do it.

In my case I wholly internalize a tune. Melody, harmony, groove, bass line, lead lines , etc. Then I can convey those things, in varying degrees, on the piano, or the bass, or by singing.

EDIT- I read the other post when you talk about the practice and exercises you've done over the last few months. You're doing exactly the right thing. All those things will help. It's just going to take some time. Music is a language (like English, German, Spanish, etc) and learning any language takes time.

 

[mikelcombs@gmai]

I found it useful to recognize harmonic patterns by sight and by ear. Here's a book that deeply contributed to this in my life.

Hearin' The Changes by Jerry Coker

Jamey Aebersold Jazz: Product Display

www.jazzbooks.com

 

[c-ba55]

Playing a lot, a lot of different songs, and some of the same songs a lot, for years, my hands are finally sometimes going where my ear anticipates the next chord is going to be, without me having an intellectual thought. But knowing theory and thinking fast sure did help a lot for the first few decades.

 

[Bass Motifs]

Practice makes perfect on this one!

My first target is the chord structure/ tonality of the song. After first hearing I often have a go on piano to see how much I get right off the bat. I make it a game. If I "know" I've got it I'll go to bass directly.

Sometimes I just can't hear it, and take a few listens, trying to hear intervals etc to unstick a mental image of the pattern. Often I miss something simple, thinking stuff is harder than it is.

Once I've got a lock on the chord structure, then I put it on bass, with the patterns and fills that fit. All within my skill level, but still able to hold the whole tune.

I only use tabs as total last resort...

PS I saw clip today on YT from the jazz bassist Rufus Reid. He said be "friends" with the piano, for exactly this reason.

 

[JamesGrant]

It’s a great question.
My answer…
There’s three aspects, when there is a chord change, what the change is going to, what I should do…
I generally have no problem with when the change is happening.
There are some interval changes I have well learned, and others I find I need to ‘feel out’.
For the chord types, at speed I think of the chords in Major or Minor and I hope I get the 7ths ‘by feel’.
As to the chord, I find the quickest way to determine what a chord is play the root on the E string, and the 3rd on the G string (it’ll be on the same fret for the minor, and one fret up for a major chord) - it sounds quite pleasant too.
After that, learn arpeggios (just major and minor, but in three shapes) and then you can move from chord to chord by picking notes from the arpeggio and you’ll soon get a feel for how often you need to visit the root note of a chord in order to provide an unambiguous ‘it’s this chord’ for the listener (and the rest of the ensemble/band).
Top advice, don’t get stuck by learning the arpeggios only from the root note - learn to play the arpeggio shapes on lower notes than the root, not just from the root upwards.
You can get a very long way with this without unlocking the ‘colour’ notes that a good understanding of ‘modes and scale types’ can provide. Which is fine, but for just a little more study you can add the icecream and gravy to the meat and potatoes!
That’s my personal approach and I’m just about getting away with it!

 

[Groove Doctor]

1. I’m a fluent guitarist so I play the songs on that to HEAR it.

2. I analyse the song structure.
eg. 32 bars, 4x 8 bars sections, AABA arrangement,
4x 2 bar melody phrases in each section.

3. I analyse the chord progressions
eg. ii-V-I turnarounds, substitutions (tritone, borrowed, etc).

4. Important to note what chord each section or phrase starts and ends on.

5. I analyse the melody, especially what note each phrase starts & finishes on.
Also it’s relation to the immediate chord/ adjacent chird, and the ‘home key’
eg. Misty
- “Look at me” Bb G D melody on Ebmaj7 chord
= 5 3 (7)

6. Analyse melody if it LEADS into the next chord (very helpful) or it FOLLOWS after the chord has begun.

7. Learn to sing the melody & play on guitar.

8. Transpose it to different keys. Great for testing your understanding and memory of the chord progressions, plus ability to transpose on the fly.

If you’re having trouble, transpose it on paper in all 12 keys and check as you go. After 10 or more songs you’ll be fluent & develop confident to transpose on the fly.

9. Sometimes when I find a key that suits my voice, I’ll just use a capo to “change the key.
eg. Misty is in Eb.
Capo 1st fret - play it in D.
Capo 3rd fret - play it in C.

10. I’ll usually have swapped back & forth between guitar & bass throughout this process (which might go on for a week or three).


When studying, To move from short to medium to long term memory, you generally have to repeat something 5 times over three days.
I’ve found it takes a week or two & do 1-2 practice sessions a day.

I might only work on 8 bars at a time as there can be too much to remember and get right.
There’s often one or two little bits that take longer than others to get it in my ear and thru my fingers/ voice. That’s normal IME.

 

[J Wilson]

I find it's vital to hear intervals and know what I'm hearing, to string the changes to gether into a song.

A fourth sounds different than a fifth sounds different than a flat third or a flat seven or sharp fifth. If I can hear the intervals in concert with the chord changes, for the things I'm likely to play, it comes fairly quickly.

However I came to this from years of piano training, and I think with piano, using both hands, it's easy to be able to play any chord or any harmony. Had I started and only ever played a one-note-only instrument like bass or horns, it would be WAY harder to sketch entire songs in my head.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

I've been trying to work on hearing/feeling the changes rather than viewing them as a sequence of chords.

Wondering how folks work on internalizing the changes. Do you use piano/guitar? Chords on the bass? Or do you just get to know them through playing appregios/walking bass? Or perhaps you're awesome and internalize them after listening to the song once.

Curious what people have found a useful approach, given the limited chordal range of a normal 4 string bass.

Thanks,

This is an excellent question and I honestly don’t have a good answer. I can “feel” the changes, but what exactly does that mean or how does one develop the skill? Even with a new piece of music, I tend to have good intuition with where a song might go just due to how formulaic western music can be. When a new song keeps me on my toes and does things I wasn’t expecting, while still maintaining a sense of cohesiveness and form, that really sparks my interest.

I think I have some brainstorming to do.

 

[Wesley R]

Over 50 years ago, I auditioned for a band. We were playing and it was going OK, not great but ok. I was having a little trouble hearing the changes and telling where we were going.
Lead guitar guy shows up a half hour late. Fender Twin, Fender Tele, couple of stomp boxes. Loud and way trebly, I mean sinus draining, teeth aching, disorienting trebly loud.
I passed and we had practice the next day. I left my amp. Just as I was leaving for practice I got a call saying they found a better player, and would like it if they could keep my amp until after that weeks gig. I showed up with some back up muscle, unplugged the new guy and grabbed my amp.

 

[monkeyland]

Learn the melody. Or some representation of the melody that sits with the harmony.

Since you mention the iReal book, go listen to actual recordings of the tunes you are learning. Find several versions of each tune. It's going to take some time. As you learn more tunes, the next one will get easier to learn and understand.

This right here. I used to play with a drummer in college(jazz small group) who would learn the melody of the tunes and sing them to himself while playing. We would be playing through the solos and he would be over there still singing the melody while playing off of what was going on around him. That guy was deeply musical and definitely knew the material.