ash vs mahogany

[Brad Johnson]

Agreed. But by the same token, I think some people overestimate what they're capable of reliably discriminating...or, to put it another way, they underestimate the impact of confirmation bias.

Based on what?

 

[Brad Johnson]

To the OP's original question... here's what I do: I rely predominantly on my own hands on experience. Don't have examples locally? A good return policy is your friend. I got a lot of my experience pre-internet on gear that wasn't local for me.

 

[jlepre]

It all MIND over MATTER... If I don't MIND, it doesn't MATTER.

 

[Afc70]

I've played 2 Lowend Jazz basses, side by side, one had ash body/maple board, the other had alder body/maple board, same pickups & preamps, scale length, same, same type strings. I could hear a noticeable difference, the ash bodied bass seemed much snappier & more lively, especially when slapping. I preferred the tones from the ash/maple bass, & there was a definite audible difference.

 

[Bob_Ross]

Based on what?

Based on studies about human cognitive/discriminative abilities that have been coming out of the neuroscience and psychology fields for decades.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Based on studies about human cognitive/discriminative abilities that have been coming out of the neuroscience and psychology fields for decades.

Which means what? That some musicians can't hear the nuances they claim to hear?

 

[Blaargh]

Which means what? That some musicians can't hear the nuances they claim to hear?

It's entirely possible, your ears/any senses aren't nearly as reliable as people think, especially at this level of detail. People tend to hear what they want.

 

[Gorn]

Which means what? That some musicians can't hear the nuances they claim to hear?

Yup.

 

[Brad Johnson]

It's entirely possible, your ears/any senses aren't nearly as reliable as people think, especially at this level of detail. People tend to hear what they want.

Just as it's entirely possible that they are.

In my case I've been surprised to play a newer Ash Fender Jazz 5 that had a decidedly Alder vibe to it's soloed bridge pickup sound. I didn't expect to hear that so that wasn't a case of hearing what I want. I heard what I heard which flew in the face of what I expected.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Yup.

Great... now substitute "all" for "some" and weigh in.

 

[Blaargh]

Just as it's entirely possible that they are.

In my case I've been surprised to play a newer Ash Fender Jazz 5 that had a decidedly Alder vibe to it's soloed bridge pickup sound. I didn't expect to hear that so that wasn't a case of hearing what I want. I heard what I heard which flew in the face of what I expected.

Your brain and ears cannot provide good evidence because you have a limited and skewed perception of sound. That notwithstanding, can you discount the effect of the pickups or any other gear you were using?

http://stormriders.com/guitar/telecaster/guitar_wood.pdf
it seems that there is proof to the statement made by
Halliday in that the body of an electric guitar does not have resonance. Of course this is both
correct and incorrect. From the stand point of the electric guitar’s purpose of being amplified the
statement is correct. However, the guitar body does in fact resonate and when it is not plugged
in, the body is noticed to color the sound. This observation explains why some would say they
can hear a difference in the wood. When playing an electric guitar unplugged the tonal qualities
of the wood are apparent as the ears perceive what the microphone “hears”. These perceptible
variations however, appear to get lost when the volume of the amplified signal takes over.

Bearing in mind that this looks at the effect of tone woods on an electric guitar where it's more pronounced than on bass. The idea that tonewoods make a discernible difference on an amplified solid-body electric bass is pretty weak.

 

[svlilioukalani]

A link to Alembic's body wood page.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Which Say's

The body wood you choose affects many aspects of your Alembic. Some woods are lighter weight than others. Certain woods have a noticeable effect on the tone, while others are quite neutral. On our neck through guitars and basses, the body wood contributes less to the sound than on our set neck models. The observations we present relate only to Alembics, other makers will surely find differing results with their own techniques.

 

[Brad Johnson]

A link to Alembic's body wood page.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Which Say's

The body wood you choose affects many aspects of your Alembic. Some woods are lighter weight than others. Certain woods have a noticeable effect on the tone, while others are quite neutral. On our neck through guitars and basses, the body wood contributes less to the sound than on our set neck models. The observations we present relate only to Alembics, other makers will surely find differing results with their own techniques.

I agree... I've found that basses with voiced electronic are much more consistent with their sound despite different body woods. Also basses with lots of laminates.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Your brain and ears cannot provide good evidence because you have a limited and skewed perception of sound. That notwithstanding, can you discount the effect of the pickups or any other gear you were using?

http://stormriders.com/guitar/telecaster/guitar_wood.pdf
it seems that there is proof to the statement made by
Halliday in that the body of an electric guitar does not have resonance. Of course this is both
correct and incorrect. From the stand point of the electric guitar’s purpose of being amplified the
statement is correct. However, the guitar body does in fact resonate and when it is not plugged
in, the body is noticed to color the sound. This observation explains why some would say they
can hear a difference in the wood. When playing an electric guitar unplugged the tonal qualities
of the wood are apparent as the ears perceive what the microphone “hears”. These perceptible
variations however, appear to get lost when the volume of the amplified signal takes over.

Bearing in mind that this looks at the effect of tone woods on an electric guitar where it's more pronounced than on bass. The idea that tonewoods make a discernible difference on an amplified solid-body electric bass is pretty weak.

No, it's not.


And the beauty of this is that I only have to prove it to myself. You can't talk to me intelligently about what >>>I<<< can or cannot hear. Why would you believe otherwise? Are we musicians given standard issue hearing at birth and nothing, including honing our ability to distinguish what we hear, never changes?

I guess you'd really need to understand what I'm contending. I don't get the feeling that that is the case.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I've played 2 Lowend Jazz basses, side by side, one had ash body/maple board, the other had alder body/maple board, same pickups & preamps, scale length, same, same type strings. I could hear a noticeable difference, the ash bodied bass seemed much snappier & more lively, especially when slapping. I preferred the tones from the ash/maple bass, & there was a definite audible difference.

What some are saying is that you probably expected to hear a difference so you did. Even have a name for it. The funny thing is that they start out with preconceived notions too.


IME slapping can bring out tonalities that playing less-aggressive fingerstyle might not. Generally speaking I've found the same sort of tonal differences between Ash and Maple bodies. Generally speaking.

 

[Gorn]

And the beauty of this is that I only have to prove it to myself. You can't talk to me intelligently about what >>>I<<< can or cannot hear.

And thus ends the rational discussion. It's true because you say it is. Evidence is irrelevant. Outside, testable results don't matter because you know what you know. Demonstration is a waste of time.

 

[Brad Johnson]

And thus ends the rational discussion. It's true because you say it is. Evidence is irrelevant. Outside, testable results don't matter because you know what you know. Demonstration is a waste of time.

Quite the contrary... it is very irrational to contend what someone you don't know can or cannot do. What would it be based on?

 

[Blaargh]

Quite the contrary... it is very irrational to contend what someone you don't know can or cannot do. What would it be based on?

Science?

 

[Gorn]

Quite the contrary... it is very irrational to contend what someone you don't know can or cannot do. What would it be based on?

If you can't show it, you don't know it.

That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed just as easily.


I could go on.

 

[Brad Johnson]

There are people that think tonewood is voodoo because ultimately it's what they want or maybe even need to believe. Because they haven't experienced a difference or someone they look up to holds the same opinion. Some of those same people will then accuse luthiers who admittedly may have much more long term exposure to the phenomena of being tricksey... just trying to make more money. Even when the two woods are priced equally.


I've had lots of opportunities to play otherwise identical basses over the years and basses of different designs with similar hardware and I have no reason to second guess the results I've experienced. So do I think luthiers are trying to screw people with sorcery as some contend? Depends on the luthier... I'm not going to make a blanket defense.


Rational? The position itself that it doesn't matter, period, when you look at the fundamentals of it, isn't rational. But to make up for that the cry of "No conclusive lab tests have been made..." is something that I find both sad and predictable. "Don't trust your ears... because I can't trust mine" is something I'll gladly leave to people who need reinforcement on what I still find to be a poorly thought out stance. YMMV