asked to leave Sansamp at home next time

[tbplayer2]

Sound engineer says "I'm having trouble with the bass. What is that thing? (Referring to Sansamp BDI). Let's leave it out next time, he says.

I'm running bass -> DI -> FOH. My bass is Ibanez GSR200, provided DI is Whirlwind IMP2. I replaced it with my Sansamp with settings to " SVT Style" from the book.

Playing at a fairly large church in rotation for 5 years or so . Sound guy is new to FOH, 2 months maybe. He worked the monitor board before that. They recently removed the Ampeg SVT and 8x10 to "clean up the stage" and replaced it with a Whirlwind Imp2 DI box. Previous engineer was an experienced, paid pro and was always happy with my sound through the amp's effected DI out. I'm not a flashy player; just want to sit tight and sound good.

My bass is not the greatest, and going direct through a $50 Di doesn't help. So I brought the Sansamp, in lieu of the SVT. New sound guy told me they are running EQ and 2 software compressors on the bass channel that "make it sound awesome". One to smooth out my volume, and one to hide the bass behind the kick drum.

Also on stage are acoustic, lead, and rhythm guitars each with their own large pedal board, keys, loop, custom drums designed for the auditorium, and 4 vocals.

And I'm asked to leave the Sansamp at home, and use the DI.

So the question for the sound pros; What is your preference Sansamp Bass DI, or Imp2 DI?

I'd appreciate your suggestions.

 

[AndyLES]

Do you prefer the Sansamp tone? If so, then tell him to either work around YOUR rig, or get lost - it's YOUR sound, period.

 

[s0c9]

And I'm asked to leave the Sansamp at home, and use the DI.

So the question for the sound pros; What is your preference Sansamp Bass DI, or Imp2 DI?

I'd appreciate your suggestions.

That tells me your sound guy doesn't know jack.
Which is honestly not surprising for many church "techs".
Any "barely functioning" FOH guy I know should be able to work with either one. I have both units, and have used both. If you want to use the Sansamp (or any other preamp style DI for that matter) when I'm running sound?? Bring it on!

 

[DWBass]

Yeah, sounds like he's 'cleaning up' your sound to 'his' taste. Explain to him it's about 'your' sound. Not his. Unless that DI is inducing some sort of noise in the mix, your sound shouldn't be a problem.

 

[vickerekes]

I've played in various church venues for more than a few decades: a simple 'no' should suffice - no contest.

 

[Roland GR 88]

Any decent tech will be able to use the Sansamp without complaint. I'd be more worried about the two compression programs he's running as that's more likely the cause of his angst than a treated D.I. signal.
Good luck with this one.........

 

[superheavyfunk]

The SansAmp is basically a DI with an EQ, from the soundguys perspective. It sounds to me like he's just a rookie who doesn't know his game yet. I'd tell him to figure it out and continue using the device.

 

[Altitude]

I'd recommend against the hardline approach most of the guys have suggested so far. Best case, you make an enemy out of the sound engineer. Worst case, the guy carries influence and you lose the gig.

I suggest you start by describing the tone you're trying to get. Doing that is safely within the bounds of professional behavior. Explain the extent to which you feel the Sansamp has a role in delivering that tone, and indicate that you're concerned about how you will get it if you don't have the Sansamp available.

Ask for his suggestions. One of the following will happen:

1. He'll tell you your vision for tone is incorrect or otherwise discount the objective you described.
2. He will understand your tone goal better and might better understand what he's hearing from the Sansamp, and you keep using it.
3. He will understand your tone goal better, still have a problem with your Sansamp, but have an idea how you can get the tone another way, or can help you somehow.
4. He will understand your tone goal better, still have a problem with your Sansamp, and be powerless to get you where you want your tone to be.

#2 or #3 are fine. Be flexible and give him a chance to help you in a way that works for him. That way you're on the high road, he respects you for how you handled it, and your situation with the guy is better from then on.

#1 is less good but you know you really do have a jerk on your radar and you can feel a little more confident taking the hardline.

#4 is the toughest, because you have to decide between getting your tone or making the engineer's life a little easier.

 

[filmtex]

I've played in various church venues for more than a few decades: a simple 'no' should suffice - no contest.

Played in churches for years and ran sound for just about as many. I'm with vickerekes. And good luck.

 

[tbplayer2]

I'd recommend against the hardline approach most of the guys have suggested so far. Best case, you make an enemy out of the sound engineer. Worst case, the guy carries influence and you lose the gig.

I suggest you start by describing the tone you're trying to get. Doing that is safely within the bounds of professional behavior. Explain the extent to which you feel the Sansamp has a role in delivering that tone, and indicate that you're concerned about how you will get it if you don't have the Sansamp available.

Ask for his suggestions. One of the following will happen:

1. He'll tell you your vision for tone is incorrect or otherwise discount the objective you described.
2. He will understand your tone goal better and might better understand what he's hearing from the Sansamp, and you keep using it.
3. He will understand your tone goal better, still have a problem with your Sansamp, but have an idea how you can get the tone another way, or can help you somehow.
4. He will understand your tone goal better, still have a problem with your Sansamp, and be powerless to get you where you want your tone to be.

#2 or #3 are fine. Be flexible and give him a chance to help you in a way that works for him. That way you're on the high road, he respects you for how you handled it, and your situation with the guy is better from then on.

#1 is less good but you know you really do have a jerk on your radar and you can feel a little more confident taking the hardline.

#4 is the toughest, because you have to decide between getting your tone or making the engineer's life a little easier.

#1 is kind of where we are. I explained it is essentially the same sound as the SVT they just removed (to clean up the stage look). He said that's not necessary because "we can do anything from the computer that the pros do". I understand his point. But, he is not a pro, and struggling with the bass indicates he is struggling with his board. One of the other bass players brings a tone hammer, and another used this same sansamp. In fact I just bought it from him. And yeah, I don't really want to take a hard line. Just shocked to meet such resistance from a newbie with a Mac.

 

[walterw]

i'd go with my favorite variation, "ha ha, no."

that said, just how are you running it? between the very hyped bass boost on typical ibanez basses and the [edit:BDDI] itself there's a lot of room for mischief.

 

[Altitude]

#1 is kind of where we are. I explained it is essentially the same sound as the SVT they just removed (to clean up the stage look). He said that's not necessary because "we can do anything from the computer that the pros do". I understand his point. But, he is not a pro, and struggling with the bass indicates he is struggling with his board. One of the other bass players brings a tone hammer, and another used this same sansamp. In fact I just bought it from him. And yeah, I don't really want to take a hard line. Just shocked to meet such resistance from a newbie with a Mac.

I've experimented with adding drive in post-production a little. Technically it does work, in the sense that you have no drive on the incoming signal and do have drive on the output. From a player's standpoint though, I would always want to be hearing a driven signal if I intend for the listener to hear one. I dig in differently and use my right hand differently if I am playing with drive than I do when I play clean. I probably play further to the front to add more fret rattle to the dirt.

I agree with Walter - if you're at #1, your next move could be asking the sound guy what bothers him about the Sansamp. If he can give you a specific answer ("too much low-end") you can try to fix that without relinquishing the thing entirely.

On this song I recorded the whole part clean, and the engineer added drive much later. I didn't hear it with drive until the master cut for the CD. I wasn't happy at first, but it's grown on me.

 

[tbplayer2]

Yeah, fair question. One tone knob, rolled full high. Neck pup full, bridge, 3/4. Has a "phat II" that scoops the sound. Don't like that in band setting so leave it off. Sansamp set to their "SVT setting" which is same as their amp I've been playing for the past 5 years. Nothing radical or out of the ordinary.

 

[Terracite]

BDDI was my sound for a couple years. Looking at Sansamp's SVT setting, that would be REALLY dirty with my bass. Have you had a chance to listen to what's being sent to the board? If you've got access to a board or a headphone amp that you can listen to your tone out of the DI through headphones or a clean speaker, give it a try.

On the other hand, if you've tried this already, and you're certain the tone you're sending is what you want, please ignore the above and tell the soundman to deal with it.

 

[Al Kraft]

I would have a sit down with the sound guy and see what the disconnect is. I own a BDDI and have used it for thousand person venues as my send for FOH - with a big "thank you, nice tone" from the sound techs. It has also been used in many studio recordings over many years with great success. So it's not like it's a fad of the week or poor quality piece of gear.

With that said, some folks s don't care for the BDDI tone...hey, some folks like Ampeg and some folks like GK. My guess is that you and he have a different idea of what the bass should sound like in a mix. His story line about two compression programs and "hiding the bass behind the kick drum" sound to me like a guy who pretends to know more than he does. All instruments should sit in the mix in a way that is complementary in my experience.

I've never heard an engineer or producer (live sound or in the studio) use the phrase "hide the bass" or any other instrument for that matter. I've heard phrases like "to better slot you in the mix" and "to carve out the right tonal space" and "get you sitting more cleanly/better balanced in the mix"...never "hiding"!!

If you and the band like a certain tone for the bass and the BDDI gets you there, then it's the sound guys job to make it happen in FOH. Now if the sound guy is the producer and paying you for the tone he wants, then it's your job to deliver. Hope that helps and good luck!

 

[39-Bassist]

Have guitarist or someone else who plays, play your bass and you go out front with the sound guy and tweek your sound as YOU like it or at least as both of you are satisfied. Just be plolite and keep communications open and clear with each other.

 

[matante]

"New sound guy told me they are running EQ and 2 software compressors on the bass channel that "make it sound awesome". One to smooth out my volume, and one to hide the bass behind the kick drum."

What???

 

[pedroims]

I also play at church, I was running my bass > b3k> tonehammer > FOH. I was asked to go direct, I brought my JDI, the bass still sounds great. What we did was to take sometime before the service to do a sound check and eq the bass, we saved the settings and now not matter who is running the sound board they will always have a good start. Going direct is not a bad thing you just need to work with the sound guy to make sure that both party are getting what they need.

 

[EastCoastThump]

A few concerns on both sides of the board. You say you're setting it according to the tech 21 manual. Do you have a wireless (or does your sound tech have time to let you plug into the console from the mix position) so you can hear what he's hearing? Hard to say what your BDDI settings sound like through the FOH from the stage.

Similarly, have you heard what the sound tech's bass presets sound like through FOH? I'm not optimistic, given your account of what he's said, but maybe he's got something cooking. I'd start by listening, and strongly encourage the sound tech to do the same.

 

[walterw]

Yeah, fair question. One tone knob, rolled full high. Neck pup full, bridge, 3/4. Has a "phat II" that scoops the sound. Don't like that in band setting so leave it off.

OK good; that's the big one that can wreck the mix, but you're sidestepping that landmine entirely.

as for the bass driver settings:

Sansamp set to their "SVT setting"

that's pretty aggressive, i play rage against the machine and tool songs with less overdrive than that!

try level higher and drive way lower, like down to 9:00/10:00, and put both treble and presence closer to noon. that should give a good all-around "normal" clean bass tone that still feels like an amp.

anybody who can't deal with that is just incompetent.