At what point does low action begin to affect sustain?

[MistaMarko]

Thanks guys, appreciate the help. The bass has Bartolini pickups, so the magnetic thing isn't an issue.

First - I don't mean any offense by this statement, but given your responses here it sounds like you could use some instruction in setups.

None taken! Completely agree with you. DEFINITELY don't know everything about setups, and I'm always looking to learn. I'll try to hunt down those stickies...

 

[CapnSev]

Thanks guys, appreciate the help. The bass has Bartolini pickups, so the magnetic thing isn't an issue.

Barts are still magnetic.

 

[MistaMarko]

Barts are still magnetic.

Not as much as passives. And they don't seem to be attracting the string when I touch them together...maybe it's very slight?

 

[CapnSev]

Not as much as passives. And they don't seem to be attracting the string when I touch them together...maybe it's very slight?

The pickups are still passive, your preamp is active. They are just as magnetic as any other pickup, the only difference is the pole pieces are covered by the pickup covers.

 

[MistaMarko]

the pole pieces are covered by the pickup covers.

Exactly, which is why I was saying I doubt it would be an issue.

Okay, anyway, so I spent a few hours last night setting up my bass just as the Fender guide suggested on the sticky (the intonation part, mostly only). My neck seems to have just a SLIGHT bit of relief, and the strings still look evenly high from the fretboard all the way down. I managed to get the intonation for the top 4 strings perfect, and the bottom three (7 string bass) I wasn't able to get completely on, as they all ran about 5-10 cents sharp, which I expect.

It eliminated most of the fret buzz, however, there is still a bit of buzz ONLY on frets 9-12 for the top 3 strings, so I'm not sure what to do.

NOTE: I've been dry-playing for weeks with no amp, so I doubt it would even come through.

 

[Jay Corwin]

Maybe someone can clarify this for me, but this website is the only place I've ever heard of the magnetic field of your PUP's actually affecting anything. The whole idea seems absurd to me, that the magnets in your PUP could actually be drawing the string down as it vibrates causing problems. I've done extensive setup work on several basses, and adjusted PUP's all over the place. It has never once even slightly effected action, buzzing, and certainly not intonation. The only thing it has ever changed is the output level/tone from a particular string, which is what it is suppose to do.

But hey - I'm open minded. If someone has a credible article or something, lay it on me. I'm always willing to learn something new.

 

[David Jayne]

They are just as magnetic as any other pickup,

Mmmm.... gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there. I have 4 different sets of Barts and they all exhibit far less magnetism than 'standard' type pickups, especially the split-coil J's- they have very weak magnets.

 

[Benjamin Strange]

Maybe someone can clarify this for me, but this website is the only place I've ever heard of the magnetic field of your PUP's actually affecting anything. The whole idea seems absurd to me, that the magnets in your PUP could actually be drawing the string down as it vibrates causing problems. I've done extensive setup work on several basses, and adjusted PUP's all over the place. It has never once even slightly effected action, buzzing, and certainly not intonation. The only thing it has ever changed is the output level/tone from a particular string, which is what it is suppose to do.

But hey - I'm open minded. If someone has a credible article or something, lay it on me. I'm always willing to learn something new.

I can't quote any articles, but I can tell you - it CAN affect intonation, and rarely, can cause action problems. If you look up "wolf tone" or "wolf notes" and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Granted, mostly this affects guitars more than it affects basses, but it is certainly something that bears investigating.

 

[bucky gelo]

I've been experimenting with action lately just to try something new. Went for one of those ultra-low setups, but notice that the sustain just begins to suffer after awhile, especially on certain frets. I'm also noticing that the G string (on my 7-string) buzzes HORRIBLY around frets 9-12.

I relieved the neck a tad, and it didn't do much.

My main question here is, even if you hear a LITTLE bit of fret buzz, it seems like it would be affecting your sustain a little, simply due to something coming in contact with the vibrating string.

How do you low-action players remedy, deal with, or avoid this?

The general rule of thumb, is the higher the action, and the heavier the string, the more volume and tone you aheive. You have to find that happy medium. If the strings buzz on any fretts, and the fretts are dressed properly, and the neck has proper relief, the action is too low. The other important factor, is your attack. The harder the attack, the higher the action must be. Most players with ultra low action have a soft attack on the strings.

 

[David Jayne]

Maybe someone can clarify this for me, but this website is the only place I've ever heard of the magnetic field of your PUP's actually affecting anything.

Check this article/interview with Roscoe Beck, scroll down to 'Blood, Sweat & Tuning Gears.'
Link Removed

 

[refuge4]

my luthier explained it to me like this, your strings 'vibrate' in a jump rope type pattern, that is, the string moves in a cylindrical motion and moves most in the middle of the string, normally 12th to 14th frets (although this varies from bass to bass). whenever the neck plane intersects with the looping strings, it begins to affect sustain. i really hate fret buzz or 'clanking' and i dig in pretty hard so i normally set mine up a little higher. i do agree with most people here though, i never really play notes meant to last longer than a couple measures at most and if longer, nothing a little gain bump can't fix.

 

[Benjamin Strange]

The general rule of thumb, is the higher the action, and the heavier the string, the more volume and tone you aheive. You have to find that happy medium. If the strings buzz on any fretts, and the fretts are dressed properly, and the neck has proper relief, the action is too low. The other important factor, is your attack. The harder the attack, the higher the action must be. Most players with ultra low action have a soft attack on the strings.

Not exactly - high action will allow a string to speak more clearly, but it will not provide more volume. Also, super heavy strings can actually choke an instrument, actually cutting volume, sustain, and tone.

True, you have to find a happy medium between fret buzz and playability - you have to decide how much of each you can live with or without.

Also - harder players most likely *should* have higher action to avoid fret buzz, but: some people like some buzzing. Alternately, having super low action does not guarantee soft attack by the player. I'd say that most players haven't even considered how their instrument plays - they just go for it.

 

[MistaMarko]

The only thing I'm unsure about is my neck radius and how to know if my truss rod is "properly adjusted". Truss rod stuff is the one thing I am completely ignorant about...I have a decent grip on intonation and action. I don't understand what the truss can affect (or, how, it affects action/intonation).

I'm playing a Conklin GTBD-7, and they aren't too common, so I'm not sure if the whole 7.25/9/15 standard neck radius measurements even work.

I mean, my neck is relieved a VERY slight amount, as you have to look REALLY close to see any slope. It's safer to call it straight, practically. I'm not sure what a lot of relief looks like. Let me Google some pictures...

 

[Benjamin Strange]

It's not just your truss rod that affects intonation - everything does. Strings, action, etc...

A quick way to gauge relief is to fret a note on your lowest string at the 1st and 13th frets, and then see how much space there is between the bottom of the string and the 6th fret. How much space is acceptable depends on your personal preference.

If you're setting up your own personal instrument, do it in this order: truss rod, nut, then bridge. Doing it out of order will only cause problems during other phases of your setup.

 

[bongomania]

this website is the only place I've ever heard of the magnetic field of your PUP's actually affecting anything. The whole idea seems absurd to me, that the magnets in your PUP could actually be drawing the string down as it vibrates causing problems.

Magnets emit a magnetic field. Strings (in this application) are ferrous, meaning they are attracted to magnets. You are probably accustomed to thinking of the magnetic field as some sort of passive "place" where the string vibration is picked up, but the fact is that you've got a piece of ferrous metal within the field of a magnet. The metal is drawn to the magnet. It's really that simple.

I've done extensive setup work on several basses, and adjusted PUP's all over the place. It has never once even slightly effected action, buzzing, and certainly not intonation. The only thing it has ever changed is the output level/tone from a particular string, which is what it is suppose to do.

The reason it changes the output level/tone from a particular string is because you are lowering the ferrous metal deeper into the magnetic field, or pulling it away. The effect of the magnet on the string is exactly the point. As to the issues of action, buzzing, and intonation: the effects are going to be subtle, not obvious. It's not like by lowering the strings 2mm, suddenly you're switching on a powerful electromagnet. But that doesn't mean there is no effect. What Ben said is right, that the harmonics of our notes are dependent on the shape of the wave of the oscillating string, and as a magnet changes the wave shape, so it changes the relative strength of the harmonics, as well as our perception of the fundamental. I wouldn't necessarily say that means a change in intonation (in a strict tension-measurement sense) as much as it can throw off our perception of the note qualities, so it can "sound wrong" at certain distances from pickup to string--because of the effect of the magnetic field on the string.

 

[sunbeast]

Maybe someone can clarify this for me, but this website is the only place I've ever heard of the magnetic field of your PUP's actually affecting anything. The whole idea seems absurd to me, that the magnets in your PUP could actually be drawing the string down as it vibrates causing problems. I've done extensive setup work on several basses, and adjusted PUP's all over the place. It has never once even slightly effected action, buzzing, and certainly not intonation. The only thing it has ever changed is the output level/tone from a particular string, which is what it is suppose to do.

But hey - I'm open minded. If someone has a credible article or something, lay it on me. I'm always willing to learn something new.

The whole physics behind electric guitar pickups depends on an interaction between the strings and the magentic field. The closer the magnet is to ferrous metal (the nickel in your strings), the stronger the magnetic force acting on the strings. The same way that a magnet held over a paperclip on a table can move the paperclip without touching it- the magnetic force is acting on the paperclip before you can ever see any movement.

As far as intonation- Both my G&L L2000 and L2500 had such strong magnets that I couldn't set the pickups even as close as about 3/32" from the E string (when fretted at the last fret) without sharpening the higher octaves on the string noticeably- you could set the pickup 1/8" from the string and literally watch the note flatten nearly 25 cents on a tuner if you hit the E octave and then lowered the pickup about 1/2 an inch! I didn't believe it could have that much effect at first either.

The sustain issue has been much more noticeable on 6-string guitars I have set up, though the G&Ls both get noticeably "thumpier" (dynamically vs. tonally) as you raise the pickups. It is very much related to the type, size, and number of magnets used, as well as the strings- nickel strings have more ferrous material than steel...

Karl