Attempting an experimental finish and need some advice

[1n3]

I'm skeptical of the concept, especially on a closed-grain wood like Alder, but will take a swing at this.

The problem I'd anticipate when applying black dye over color stain is, your colors will become too dark and dirty. My thought would be to start by rubbing paint - not stain - into bare wood, hoping to block subsequent black dye from penetration. Assuming your black dye will be water or alcohol based, I'd probably use oil paint, maybe thinned.

Ideally, the paint would be selectively absorbed, so that sanding yields bare wood in places where the paint did not penetrate well (winter growth?), and color where it did (summer growth?). Then, hopefully, you could get black dye to soak into the bare areas, and the dye would have minimal effect on the painted areas. IF that worked, you could control the color exposure both by paint application and by sanding. End grain would probably need different treatment.

My suggested test would be to get a tube of artist's oil paint, some mineral spirits, some black dye, and experiment on scrap wood.

This could be a completely flawed idea.

 

[JimmyM]

I'm skeptical of the concept, especially on a closed-grain wood like Alder, but will take a swing at this.

The problem I'd anticipate when applying black dye over color stain is, your colors will become too dark and dirty. My thought would be to start by rubbing paint - not stain - into bare wood, hoping to block subsequent black dye from penetration. Assuming your black dye will be water or alcohol based, I'd probably use oil paint, maybe thinned.

Ideally, the paint would be selectively absorbed, so that sanding yields bare wood in places where the paint did not penetrate well (winter growth?), and color where it did (summer growth?). Then, hopefully, you could get black dye to soak into the bare areas, and the dye would have minimal effect on the painted areas. IF that worked, you could control the color exposure both by paint application and by sanding. End grain would probably need different treatment.

My suggested test would be to get a tube of artist's oil paint, some mineral spirits, some black dye, and experiment on scrap wood.

This could be a completely flawed idea.

Not sure what you mean...do you mean use a yellow oil based paint to fill the grain first so that dye doesn't get in there, sand it back and dye black, then just paint the colors into the grain with more oil paint and a small brush? Is that the suggestion? If so, sounds like a sound idea on paper.

EDIT: This idea is appealing more and more to me. Solid colors would tend to pop more than stains against a black BG. And then, maybe I could skip the bleaching process.

 

[1n3]

Yeah, that's about it... as I imagine it, the paint fills the pores and the dye is mostly blocked. And I imagine rubbing against the grain to work the paint into the wood, a little at a time, then maybe a light wipe with a spirit-soaked rag. Not brushing, sorry.

No idea what would happen with tru oil over paint... never used it.

 

[JimmyM]

Yeah, that's about it... as I imagine it, the paint fills the pores and the dye is mostly blocked. And I imagine rubbing against the grain to work the paint into the wood, a little at a time, then maybe a light wipe with a spirit-soaked rag. Not brushing, sorry.

No idea what would happen with tru oil over paint... never used it.

I have and it's usually fine as long as your paint job is fully dry, you rub on very thin coats, and be careful not to get the first coat so wet it causes smears. And I would save the brushing for the post-dyeing grain coloring. OK, I get it now, and I can totally see it working. Nice!

 

[Ric5]

before you try an experimental finish on your bass body maybe try it on a piece of scrap wood first

 

[Reedt2000]

Yeah, that's about it... as I imagine it, the paint fills the pores and the dye is mostly blocked. And I imagine rubbing against the grain to work the paint into the wood, a little at a time, then maybe a light wipe with a spirit-soaked rag. Not brushing, sorry.

No idea what would happen with tru oil over paint... never used it.

I also think this is a better plan than using stain. Most ceruse directions also recommend a wire brush to open pores even more which might not be a bad idea with an alder body. Wire brush, damp cloth, try to open them as much as possible.

 

[JimmyM]

I also think this is a better plan than using stain. Most ceruse directions also recommend a wire brush to open pores even more which might not be a bad idea with an alder body. Wire brush, damp cloth, try to open them as much as possible.

You got it! And then I can put whatever colors I want into the grain with impunity. As of this moment, the body's had one coat of paint remover and the acrylic stuff is sticking in the grain pretty well. But I need some more gloves, more steel wool, and maybe more lacquer thinner. I burned myself good a couple times when I found leaks in my rubber gloves. Dang wife wears them for her little outdoor projects.

 

[JimmyM]

OK, after taking a break, I have a gameplan. See how this sounds...I skipped one step that @1n3 suggested, though.

1. Dig out the grain as much as possible with a wire brush, wet it, and sand it at 220 to pop the gran as much as possible. Maybe do it all again if needed.

2. Dye the body black in very light coats, attempting to keep it out of the grain as much as possible, but not a problem if I don't.

3. Buy yellow, red and black oil or acrylic paints and cover what grain shows the most through the dye, then come back to hit areas I should but missed, and tighten up poor transition zones as needed.

4. Let dry thoroughly and start hitting it with Tru Oil till glossy.

5. Try not to screw anything up.

Man, putting this bass together looks like it's going to cost me some money. Not only for dyes, paints, and Tru Oil, but I need a bridge, a pickguard, and a neck plate. Not as much as if I were buying it all from scratch, though.

 

[JimmyM]

Just got back from Hobby Lobby with 3 small jars of acrylic paints, a jar of Fiebing's black dye, and a bag o'brushes. Found a piece of plywood in the garage that should make a good test case. Oh boy, more sanding...yay. But I will come back later with a report, and maybe even some pics of samples if it turns out well. Not making any promises, though.

 

[JimmyM]

Hey, I would very much like to thank everyone who helped with this. Every step of the way, someone came up with an even better idea than before. And that's why I risked leaking this absolutely amazing gamechanger of a finish to the public. I knew I was onto something but had no idea how the best way to pursue it, and I wanted to be the first. But I also wanted to be good, and it's not like I can collect royalties on it.

I must ask a favor, please...I want this finish to be known as the "Jimmy Miller Sunburst." Or "Miller Sunburst" will suffice. So please, whenever you refer to it online or paint your next bass stealing my great idea, just call it a "Miller Sunburst" and I'll be happy.

And if not, I'll sue every last one of ya, so help me!!!

 

[1n3]

1. Dig out the grain as much as possible with a wire brush, wet it, and sand it at 220 to pop the gran as much as possible. Maybe do it all again if needed.

2. Dye the body black in very light coats, attempting to keep it out of the grain as much as possible, but not a problem if I don't.

3. Buy yellow, red and black oil or acrylic paints and cover what grain shows the most through the dye, then come back to hit areas I should but missed, and tighten up poor transition zones as needed.

4. Let dry thoroughly and start hitting it with Tru Oil till glossy.

This departs from my concept in several ways, but your plan might work better, and also may change after testing. Will be interested in what you come up with.

 

[Matt Liebenau]

@JimmyM, I don’t know if this helps but this video was in my YouTube feed this morning. It’s not quite what you’re doing but jobs talks about thinning water based acrylics and blending the colors.

 

[LP Custom]

Eagerly awaiting updates on the inaugural Millerburst!

 

[JimmyM]

Well I'm back from a test round using a scrap piece with grain similar to alder. Might even be alder for all I know about wood. Here's the bottom side...I forgot to take a pic before I dyed the other side but whatever...not important:

First off let me say that I learned a heck of a lot about working with dyes and acrylic paints on top of them, and you can easily see the mistakes I made while working on it. My two biggest were that the yellow and red acrylic paint don't blend well, and you need to be lightning fast with wiping off your applications, make them as thin as possible, and work in very small areas at a time, lest you screw it up.

Anyway, enough about the screwups! The idea is there and it's solid...just need a little more practice to pull it off. But I think I'm going to go from a straight up grain only sunburst to something like this:

It seems I may have stumbled onto the method of making those wild looking guitars look like they were made from a dilapidated old barn door that went through 50 years of weather. Maybe. It's not dead-on to the best of them but it does look rustic to me, and the basic idea is there. It just needs some refinement, and it requires a little more patience on my part to let paints dry before putting other paints on top of them, I think. So now I think I might go in a slightly different but no less cool direction. So here's what I did for how I think I got the best results

1. Sanded to 150, then used a wire brush to raise the grain, then soaked the wood with lacquer thinner and sanded to 220.

2. Dyed the wood black using very thin light coats in small areas that are wiped off immediately.

3. Lightly sanded with 220 again.

4. Brushed colors on and quickly wiped them off, again working in small areas.

It's going to take me a lot more practice to get this right, but I do feel like I'm onto something. I just have to take my time and get used to how the materials behave with each other, and show you guys my wood when appropriate, and you can offer some advice for me to make my wood solid.

PS: My toes say "howdy"

 

[Reedt2000]

You might try not sanding directly before the color as you could crush and flatten the grain you worked hard to raise. If the colors don't blend on the board what about mixing before application? Then apply in 3 stages, yellow, orange, red?

 

[JimmyM]

You might try not sanding directly before the color as you could crush and flatten the grain you worked hard to raise. If the colors don't blend on the board what about mixing before application? Then apply in 3 stages, yellow, orange, red?

Funny you mentioned that, Reed. I just sanded a spot down on that board and applied the red and yellow acrylics first. The yellow I botched by using two quick light coats of black dye, but on the red spot I only used one:

Now we're getting back to my original idea of a grain only sunburst! Was really surprised how vibrant the colors were, even doing the black dye on top of the red. Not only that, but the color takes a highlight role to the black, and instead of looking like black and red mixed together, the black looks blacker and the red looks red. Or at least that's the plan when I try this with fully dried acrylic paints instead of this rush job.

But I'll tell you, you have about one, maybe two seconds to wipe that black dye on and wipe it off, otherwise it obscures the color. And you only have one chance with the black to get it right. Two coats of black dye are one too many.

So now all I have to do is figure out how to get from yellow to red without looking like crap, work the program a few times to get the bugs out, make sure I have everything down, then onto greatness with the Miller Sunburst (TM).

 

[ardgedee]

You're getting a lot of green where the yellow blends with the black. That could lead to interesting results.

 

[Reedt2000]

So now all I have to do is figure out how to get from yellow to red without looking like crap

I say mix your transition colors on a pallette all Bob Ross style then apply in concentric bands.

 

[JimmyM]

You're getting a lot of green where the yellow blends with the black. That could lead to interesting results.

I am, aren't I? Will have to remember that for a future wild finish. This one, though, I'd like to see with less green and more red and burnt yellow. But yeah, you could come up with wild and totally unexpected results doing stuff like this.

I say mix your transition colors on a pallette all Bob Ross style then apply in concentric bands.

I don't know, bro...if there's a shortcut to getting the results I want, I'd rather do that than do circles. Seems like there should be an easier way, no? Black to red, I think I can do. I think I can just apply a barely damp coat of the dye and wipe it off super fast in the transition areas. Red to yellow, however, I'll have to work at that. I think it'll end up taking a few days. That'll have to wait till tomorrow.

But yes, this idea absolutely CAN work on alder. No doubt.

 

[1n3]

Test sample looks like a good proxy for Alder. The area where you applied red paint first and followed with a single coat of black is encouraging; closer to what I imagined. For blending colors, I'd try applying and blending with a damp rag. Multiple light applications, wiped down quickly, might get you closer to what you want.