Attempting an experimental finish and need some advice

[JimmyM]

Apologies if this is in the wrong section since it's about hand rubbed finishes, but I want the best people giving me advice and they're all here

I have this alder body:

I started painting it this week and didn't like the results so I'm starting over. I'm going to try a 3-color sunburst finish on it, except for one small difference...the sunburst will only be stained into the grain, and the base will be black. I know tobacco brown is the proper color for sunburst, but I think black will show off the contrasts more. And while results with opening up the grain on alder and staining it can vary wildly, I think that'll work in my favor.

So my plan is to do the staining first, then dye it black. Or would I be better off dyeing it black first so I can see where the grain is? Also, I need some advice about how to make the color transitions in the grain fade into each other using only stain. The last thing I want is a big blotchy brown stain as I go from yellow to red. So if anyone has some ideas how to mitigate that using hand-rubbed stains, I'm all ears. Would an oil based stain work better at that than Varathane?

EDIT: Looking at this pic, do you all think I need to stain the grain yellow at all? I'm thinking maybe I could just leave it as is and do red and black around the edges and it would fade just fine.

Also, if it matters, I'll be using Tru Oil for the clearcoat.

TIA!

 

[Gilmourisgod]

All the sun bursts I’ve seen were dyed yellow all over first, then the red border, then the black or brown on the edges. Lots of sunburst tutorials on YT, including by Airbrush. If you dye black first, the grain will pop, not sure that’s what you want on a sunburst.


It may be hard to get a good gradation of “fade” with an airbrush, you might have better luck with a Preval sprayer, or even Rattlecan.

 

[JimmyM]

All the sun bursts I’ve seen were dyed yellow all over first, then the red border, then the black or brown on the edges. Lots of sunburst tutorials on YT, including by Airbrush. If you dye black first, the grain will pop, not sure that’s what you want on a sunburst.


It may be hard to get a good gradation of “fade” with an airbrush, you might have better luck with a Preval sprayer, or even Rattlecan.

Actually, getting the grain to pop is exactly what I want! The idea is to have the sunburst colors be only in the grain while the body's base color will be black all over. So to achieve that, I should dye the body black first and just try to keep the black out of the grain as much as possible?

 

[Reedt2000]

Wait, so you're doing a ceruse finish where the colored grain pores have a burst effect?

Like this but burst instead of white?

 

[MattZilla]

Am I reading wrong or are you thinking of doing a kinda ceruse-burst?

can’t wait to see whatever it turns out to be!

[edit] great timing!

 

[JimmyM]

Wait, so you're doing a ceruse finish where the colored grain pores have a burst effect?

Like this but burst instead of white?

View attachment 4373160

Am I reading wrong or are you thinking of doing a kinda ceruse-burst?

can’t wait to see whatever it turns out to be!

[edit] great timing!

Exactly, fellas! A ceruse burst. Except instead of using cerusing wax, I'm going to stain the grain, and dye the rest of the body black to play up the contrasts with the grain a little better than tobacco brown. I think it'll look awesome if I can pull it off. I've done ceruse before, so I think I can pull this off, too. Just need a little advice on blending the colors to flow into each other without needing to spray.

 

[MattZilla]

Lowe’s apparently has alder. You could grab a small plank to do a few rest runs on?

 

[WillyW]

Do you have an example of what you are attempting?

I’m not understanding how it will be a burst.

This is my Gibson.

 

[JimmyM]

Lowe’s apparently has alder. You could grab a small plank to do a few rest runs on?

Hope they don't charge out the wazoo for it. I may just practice on the bass itself if they do. The colors come out easily enough if you screw up.

Do you have an example of what you are attempting?

I’m not understanding how it will be a burst.

This is my Gibson.

View attachment 4373348

View attachment 4373349

OK, you've cerused the grain in white and the base color's black. The only difference between that and what I want to do is I want the grain to have the trad 3 sunburst colors...so black on the outer edges flowing into a thin band of red flowing into tobacco yellow in the middle. Only the grain will burst, and the base color's black. It's supposed to be dark tobacco brown but I think black will make the grain pop better.

 

[JimmyM]

BTW, I have looked for examples of basses painted this way and turned up goose eggs everywhere. So I hope that when you all steal this idea, and you will, you give me proper credit for thinking of it

 

[WillyW]

BTW, I have looked for examples of basses painted this way and turned up goose eggs everywhere. So I hope that when you all steal this idea, and you will, you give me proper credit for thinking of it

no sunburst, no tort…. Them’s the rules.

I’m not sure that the red and yellow grain filler on black will be a noticeable contrast, Alder may not work as well as ash or mahogany would.

 

[JimmyM]

no sunburst, no tort…. Them’s the rules.

I’m not sure that the red and yellow grain filler on black will be a noticeable contrast, Alder may not work as well as ash or mahogany would.

But I really really want the base color to be black, Willy!!!

Alder's tough to get the grain to open up, but looking at samples of how alder accepts stain on woodworking websites, I think it's totally doable with this body. I love how the grain absorbs stains unpredictably with some just barely getting it and some soaking it in deep. I just have to be very judicious about how I apply the black dye and keep it out of the grain as much as possible, and open that grain up as much as I possibly can with a wire brush before I get on it.

I'll be the first to agree with you about mahogany or ash being better, but I bought a (seriously ragged) roughcut CNC body off Ebay for the sole purpose of experimenting with alder. Then I got this new job and lost interest for a year. Now I'm interested again. May not work, but I'm trying it at least.

Conversely, you could just spray a trad sunburst on it with dyes and stain the grain black or tobacco brown and have it snake through the colors. But you know how good I look with a black bass. I'm just trying to inject a little color into it.

Speaking of which, it may violate the no bursts rule, but it won't violate the no tort rule. Doing faux gold anodized with a plastic pickguard and Rust-Oleum so it won't weigh a ton.

 

[JimmyM]

OOOOOH! I think I just answered my own question!

Turns out there are these new things on the market called "brushes" that I could use to craft the fine color transitions in the grain. And you can get them in a variety of sizes from tiny to gigantic, too. Why didn't anyone tell me about these before?

Man, do I feel like a dope! Not once did I use anything but rags to ceruse my 5-string black and gold. Rags and tape. It took until like 5 minutes ago to think of using brushes, and the answer is so obvious that I feel like a 5 year old on his first day with the art teacher.

 

[JimmyM]

Now that I've recovered from my dopery, what order is best...stain and dye, or dye and stain?

I'm leaning toward stain and dye. I'd stain all the grain yellow or a reasonable facsimile, then do the red, then the outer edges and sides in black. Then I'd have a better idea of how much black dye I can get away with laying down before it covers up the grain. At least that's what I'm thinking. Lightest to darkest is how you do a trad sunburst, so this should work the same way, right?

 

[Huw Phillips]

Have you considered using a pre coat prior to applying anything to help with the even absorbing of the stain, mini wax do a product that may help, I have found with light hardwood that they can be very mixed in the way they absorb product, I am in the middle of doing a chair that’s been a pain to get even, good luck

 

[JimmyM]

Have you considered using a pre coat prior to applying anything to help with the even absorbing of the stain, mini wax do a product that may help, I have found with light hardwood that they can be very mixed in the way they absorb product, I am in the middle of doing a chair that’s been a pain to get even, good luck

I’m going to use the unevenness to my advantage.

 

[GoLeafsGo]

Okay, following this...looking forward to seeing how it works out! Go for it Jimmy!

 

[DiabolusInMusic]

Do you have an example of what you are attempting?

I’m not understanding how it will be a burst.

This is my Gibson.

View attachment 4373348

View attachment 4373349

When they do this finish the body gets a coat of the grain colour (in your case black), letting it get into the pores. After it cures, the finish is sanded back leaving the colour in the grain only. This is why the grain pops so much. At least this is how Fbass does it.

 

[Matt Liebenau]

Now that I've recovered from my dopery, what order is best...stain and dye, or dye and stain?

I'm leaning toward stain and dye. I'd stain all the grain yellow or a reasonable facsimile, then do the red, then the outer edges and sides in black. Then I'd have a better idea of how much black dye I can get away with laying down before it covers up the grain. At least that's what I'm thinking. Lightest to darkest is how you do a trad sunburst, so this should work the same way, right?

Last time I did a burst with dye, yes, that’s how I did it. Covered the majority of the body with yellow then started blending in the other colors using the dye and, if needed, denatured alcohol as a thinner to blend the colors. Watch some of BigD’s videos on YouTube. He has a lot of videos about dyeing bursts and fades on guitar bodies.

 

[ardgedee]

EDIT: Looking at this pic, do you all think I need to stain the grain yellow at all? I'm thinking maybe I could just leave it as is and do red and black around the edges and it would fade just fine.

I can't see it in person so I won't say with total certainty, but I suspect that unstained wood is going to look more like light beige next to red and black. The color saturation in the red is going contrast strongly with any unsaturated colors -- it's part of why red over black works well.