Attempting an experimental finish and need some advice

[ardgedee]

I am, aren't I? Will have to remember that for a future wild finish. This one, though, I'd like to see with less green and more red and burnt yellow. But yeah, you could come up with wild and totally unexpected results doing stuff like this.

Not too unexpected. The black dye probably has blue pigment in it. Black inks and paints often have colors mixed in to ensure an even balance between too-warm and too-cool, part of why it's good to do experiments like you're doing.

 

[JimmyM]

Test sample looks like a good proxy for Alder. The area where you applied red paint first and followed with a single coat of black is encouraging; closer to what I imagined. For blending colors, I'd try applying and blending with a damp rag. Multiple light applications, wiped down quickly, might get you closer to what you want.

Good idea. I'm done for the evening but I'll certainly test that out tomorrow.

Oh, what the hey? Only takes an hour for the acrylics to dry and I did my test spots over an hour ago. Gonna go get a big soda then see what happens! That sounds crazy enough to work!

 

[JimmyM]

Alright, I need much more practice, and I've done burned myself out for the night. It may not be Rome, but it's not going to get built in a day, either.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Apologies if this is in the wrong section since it's about hand rubbed finishes, but I want the best people giving me advice and they're all here

I have this alder body:

View attachment 4373089
I started painting it this week and didn't like the results so I'm starting over. I'm going to try a 3-color sunburst finish on it, except for one small difference...the sunburst will only be stained into the grain, and the base will be black. I know tobacco brown is the proper color for sunburst, but I think black will show off the contrasts more. And while results with opening up the grain on alder and staining it can vary wildly, I think that'll work in my favor.

So my plan is to do the staining first, then dye it black. Or would I be better off dyeing it black first so I can see where the grain is? Also, I need some advice about how to make the color transitions in the grain fade into each other using only stain. The last thing I want is a big blotchy brown stain as I go from yellow to red. So if anyone has some ideas how to mitigate that using hand-rubbed stains, I'm all ears. Would an oil based stain work better at that than Varathane?

EDIT: Looking at this pic, do you all think I need to stain the grain yellow at all? I'm thinking maybe I could just leave it as is and do red and black around the edges and it would fade just fine.

Also, if it matters, I'll be using Tru Oil for the clearcoat.

TIA!

Hit the grain first Jimmy. Then seal it. Then, sand the body back to wood, and hit it black. Only way I can see that turning out how you want it to. Hard to miss all the grain with the black, but if you can manage to keep them sealed, they won't take the black. Then it will clean out while the body takes it.

Use Transtint black though. It's amazing.

 

[JimmyM]

Hit the grain first Jimmy. Then seal it. Then, sand the body back to wood, and hit it black. Only way I can see that turning out how you want it to. Hard to miss all the grain with the black, but if you can manage to keep them sealed, they won't take the black. Then it will clean out while the body takes it.

Use Transtint black though. It's amazing.

Transtint is too rich for my blood when I can get twice as much Fiebing's aniline dye for a quarter of the price around the corner

I was hoping this acrylic paint I got would act as its own sealer, but while the first time it seemed to work well on the red, the second time was a dismal failure. I was thinking I skimped on the prep work the second time, which I did, but I think you may be right and some proper grain sealer might be what's needed. I'll try to pick some up tomorrow and see how it works. With the gorgeous finish work you do, I'd be crazy not to listen!

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Transtint is too rich for my blood when I can get twice as much Fiebing's aniline dye for a quarter of the price around the corner

I was hoping this acrylic paint I got would act as its own sealer, but while the first time it seemed to work well on the red, the second time was a dismal failure. I was thinking I skimped on the prep work the second time, which I did, but I think you may be right and some proper grain sealer might be what's needed. I'll try to pick some up tomorrow and see how it works. With the gorgeous finish work you do, I'd be crazy not to listen!

Transtint's where it's at Jimmy! Just sayin

It's not gonna an "easy" task, by any means, but it can be done.

You could give Vasoline a try. Q tip, toothpick, whatever you can use to fill the grain. That would work. Then, let the black dry completely, and clean the vasoline off.

Me, I'd rather sand, seal, sand, clean, touch up. But, Vaseline would work 100% if you could apply it careful enough, and clean it off throughly. Without the extra sanding and fixing.

 

[byacey]

I would strongly suggest you experiment on a piece of scrap wood to get the desired effect before doing the actual body.

 

[JimmyM]

Transtint's where it's at Jimmy! Just sayin

It's not gonna an "easy" task, by any means, but it can be done.

You could give Vasoline a try. Q tip, toothpick, whatever you can use to fill the grain. That would work. Then, let the black dry completely, and clean the vasoline off.

Me, I'd rather sand, seal, sand, clean, touch up. But, Vaseline would work 100% if you could apply it careful enough, and clean it off throughly. Without the extra sanding and fixing.

Interesting...I never heard of doing that, and here I find this article that tells you how to use it to distress wood furnishings.

How to Distress Paint with Vaseline

I am not exactly sure of the process in this application, though. I do the colors in the grain and let them dry, cover the grain with Vaseline, rub on the dye, then once the dye dries, wipe out the Vaseline with a damp rag and the colors show again, then start with the Tru Oil?

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Interesting...I never heard of doing that, and here I find this article that tells you how to use it to distress wood furnishings.

How to Distress Paint with Vaseline

I am not exactly sure of the process in this application, though. I do the colors in the grain and let them dry, cover the grain with Vaseline, rub on the dye, then once the dye dries, wipe out the Vaseline with a damp rag and the colors show again, then start with the Tru Oil?

Yup. It's how you keep paint and stain off what you don't want it on. It wipes off clean. Like nothing ever happened. Everything else stays. Works wonders on your face when shooting mastics, zincs, or urethanes. They only clean off with methyl keytones. Not very good for skin. Or eyes. Or mouth. Or nature. Hahahaha. Thin layer of vasoline before hand, and a rag, and your shining like Mr clean.

Just make sure you get it all off. Or the clear won't take there either.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

I would strongly suggest you experiment on a piece of scrap wood to get the desired effect before doing the actual body.

Yes

 

[JimmyM]

Yup. It's how you keep paint and stain off what you don't want it on. It wipes off clean. Like nothing ever happened. Everything else stays. Works wonders on your face when shooting mastics, zincs, or urethanes. They only clean off with methyl keytones. Not very good for skin. Or eyes. Or mouth. Or nature. Hahahaha. Thin layer of vasoline before hand, and a rag, and your shining like Mr clean.

Just make sure you get it all off. Or the clear won't take there either.

Brilliant! Can’t wait to try it on my practice wood! Thanks for the tip!

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Funny you mentioned that, Reed. I just sanded a spot down on that board and applied the red and yellow acrylics first. The yellow I botched by using two quick light coats of black dye, but on the red spot I only used one:

View attachment 4377923

Now we're getting back to my original idea of a grain only sunburst! Was really surprised how vibrant the colors were, even doing the black dye on top of the red. Not only that, but the color takes a highlight role to the black, and instead of looking like black and red mixed together, the black looks blacker and the red looks red. Or at least that's the plan when I try this with fully dried acrylic paints instead of this rush job.

But I'll tell you, you have about one, maybe two seconds to wipe that black dye on and wipe it off, otherwise it obscures the color. And you only have one chance with the black to get it right. Two coats of black dye are one too many.

So now all I have to do is figure out how to get from yellow to red without looking like crap, work the program a few times to get the bugs out, make sure I have everything down, then onto greatness with the Miller Sunburst (TM).

MillerBurst

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

MillerBurst

Ha,

Jeez-e-line

 

[JimmyM]

Boy, sanding takes a lot out of me these days! I was totally wiped out and did nothing today.

I am getting a bit discouraged about using alder for this. Honestly, I didn't want to spend so much effort on it like painting every little bit of grain then covering it with Vaseline and a Q-Tip It's a brilliant idea, but I just don't have the patience. So tomorrow I'm going to practice some more and figure out the quickest way to whittle this process down still work, and I'm going to try it once on the body once I figure it out. And if it doesn't work, then I'll just dye it black and save the Millerburst for another day (way to tighten the name up, Jeezy!).

But I pulled it off once on the practice piece I did, so I'm not giving up just yet.

 

[1n3]

I'm skeptical of petrolatum (Vaseline) in this use. It's a mixture of petroleum fractions, the lightest of which (like motor oil) could soak into and remain in the wood, potentially causing problems with other finishes.

Manually painting/tracing the grain pattern seems too laborious, and unlikely to look natural.

If your color paints don't blend well, that's not good. They should be very compatible.

Your first tests seem to show that the first item applied will dominate. Put black on first, and the paint colors will be darker. Put color on first, and the black dye will have less effect, which seems like what you want.

 

[JimmyM]

I'm skeptical of petrolatum (Vaseline) in this use. It's a mixture of petroleum fractions, the lightest of which (like motor oil) could soak into and remain in the wood, potentially causing problems with other finishes.

Manually painting/tracing the grain pattern seems too laborious, and unlikely to look natural.

If your color paints don't blend well, that's not good. They should be very compatible.

Your first tests seem to show that the first item applied will dominate. Put black on first, and the paint colors will be darker. Put color on first, and the black dye will have less effect, which seems like what you want.

Right, and that's what I'm going to do. Do all the grain popping steps, then try it, and if it doesn't work, then this body shall just be black.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Right, and that's what I'm going to do. Do all the grain popping steps, then try it, and if it doesn't work, then this body shall just be black.

Grain, seal, sand, black.

That's what I would do.

If the grain gets black, that's it bro. The grain is black. There's nothing you can do about it. It's now got black in it.

But, the Vaseline would work. Just too tedious a job for filling grain. But if we're going to try it, I'd use a tooth pick or a needle.

 

[TerribleTim68]

Okay, this thread has been a fascinating read.

I like what you're trying to achieve, and I have no clue how to help you get there, but I had some thoughts that may or may not help.

...1. Dig out the grain as much as possible with a wire brush, wet it, and sand it at 220 to pop the gran as much as possible. Maybe do it all again if needed....

You could also try a sand blaster. If you know someone with one of those smaller Harbor Freight units, see if they will let you have access to it for a bit. I have one out at our race shop, so I'm spoiled. But a sand blaster may actually dig out the grain better than a wire brush and will probably require a lot less elbow grease.
I've seen some YouTube videos on ceruse finishes and some of them use the sand blaster method, some of them use the wire brush.

 

[Dean N]

...a sand blaster may actually dig out the grain better than a wire brush and will probably require a lot less elbow grease.

I've similarly used a wire wheel in a hand-held variable speed drill to clean up/open grain in reclaimed redwood planks (not bass related). If you have enough practice wood to try this on, it might be another option. Or it might just destroy the wood.

 

[Dean N]

Hey Jimmy, maybe my post here is late to the party, but I happened on this and immediately thought of your thread here.

This pretty much has to be what you envisioned. No, I don't know how it's done (yet) but there's a new thread on Reddit's Invalid Link Removed page that will likely provide insight. I thought you might like to check it out.

Edit: Well, that thread sure didn't survive long over there... it's already been deleted after just a half hour. Anyhow, here are the only two responses:

1) This is not burnt. It is ash that has been steel wire brushed, painted black, grain filled red and cleared.

2) I’d be willing to bet they dyed/painted the whole body, filled the deep grain with a temporary putty, then dyed/painted the black. Remove putty and viola.

I hope this is at least a little helpful!