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AudioKinesis 1x12 Cab Part Two

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#501
tombowlus said:
I believe that the single driver price increase is now well past the $50 mark (at least for his custom drivers), but I'll let Duke correct me if I am wrong.
Click to expand...

I have no clue on the OEM drivers, which is why I posted that I hope Eminence doesn't screw him on that. Last time I talked to Don Oatman, his 'wholesale' cost on a 3015LF went up $50. Again, relatively trivial in a single driver cab. Of course the retail cost increase is over double that for the DIY guys. Even then, given the quality of that driver, it is worth the cost if that is the tone you are trying to achieve.

Putting my day gig consulting hat on, this makes it even more important for Duke, as a business person, to minimize the number of driver designs he needs so that he can generate some economies of scale (i.e., that he is able to order enough volume of his custom 3012LF and 3015LF 4ohm variants to both make it worthwhile for Eminence to produce them, and also to keep his cost down by ordering a large amount of a limited number of drivers)
 
#502
I'm thinking it might start to make sense to migrate toward standard 3012LF/3015LF woofers and very straightforward 4 ohm models of those, but that puts forth a lot of challenges.

Here's hoping the neo crisis wraps up sooner rather than later.
 
#503
rpsands said:
I'm thinking it might start to make sense to migrate toward standard 3012LF/3015LF woofers and very straightforward 4 ohm models of those, but that puts forth a lot of challenges.

Here's hoping the neo crisis wraps up sooner rather than later.
Click to expand...

I don't see how that would help anything, since they would still have the same 'OEM' issues with Eminence.

Also, one of the things I like about the Thunderchild, verss the other stock 3012LF boxes is the somewhat tighter low end, the ability to put the thing in a smaller box, and the nice 'top of the driver' mids that don't result in the need for such a low crossover and mid driver.

This cab does a great job of sitting right in between a stock 12/6 box and a more traditional two way 112. For me, best of both worlds. IMO and IME there!
 
#504
The 3012LF and 3015Lf actually will behave in a much smaller box than people seem to think. Even down to 3cf, the 3015LF has a tiny upper bass hump compared to your typical older woofer (say a Beta).

What it would help is the ability to provide 8 ohm models without a custom woofer fee.


The 3015LF in a 2.5 cubic foot box tuned to 47hz has a 1.25db upper bass hump and is -3db @ 57hz. Pretty similar to the stock TC, excepting the hump.

The 3012LF can be crammed down to 1.5cf quite respectably.


Also, I would wager that Eminence has a `standard` internal 4 ohm model for both woofers that one could negotiate down the price of over time more easily. I could be mistaken there of course, but it seems like a pretty straightforward request they probably get a lot of. Yeah, I know it winds up changing a lot of other specs slightly.
 
#505
Indeed, the only problem with putting the 3012LF in a tiny box is fitting a big enough port in!

From my perspective as another manufacturer, there are three big issues with neodymium:

1. It's become so expensive that it's impossible to absorb the increase in cost and although we're simply passing on part of the direct cost that not only affects our actual profit per unit it also reduces our percentage profit margin which isn't good for cashflow (which is the biggest challenge for small and growing businesses).

2. It's availability is uncertain so you're at risk of building a whole product range which is reliant on a commodity that you may not be able to get in a few months time. That isn't a problem for DIYer (or a 'custom' builder) because you only need one or two cabs and then you're sorted - but for a manufacturer it's the difference between making money, paying wages and staying in business, or folding. Also the price volatility is an absolute nightmare from a business planning and accounting sense.

3. The uncertainty of availability and the volatility of the price means that OEM manufacturers are less keen to work with it because their R&D costs could end up being spread over a very small batch of drivers (which thus end up making a loss for them) if market conditions conspire against you.

Therefore, right now, most of our R&D energy is going on neo-free solutions! I've heard first hand that GM is taking a similar stance (on a much much much larger scale) with its hybrid cars.
 
#507
tombowlus said:
I believe that the single driver price increase is now well past the $50 mark (at least for his custom drivers), but I'll let Duke correct me if I am wrong.
Click to expand...

That is correct; my OEM neo drivers have accelerated in price faster than the "stock" neo drivers. Also, conditions placed on purchases of OEM neo magnet woofer have gotten more restrictive (minimum quantity, when payment is due, etc), because the conditions placed on Eminence by the Chinese suppliers have gotten more restrictive.

KJung said:
Putting my day gig consulting hat on, this makes it even more important for Duke, as a business person, to minimize the number of driver designs he needs so that he can generate some economies of scale (i.e., that he is able to order enough volume of his custom 3012LF and 3015LF 4ohm variants to both make it worthwhile for Eminence to produce them, and also to keep his cost down by ordering a large amount of a limited number of drivers)
Click to expand...

That makes sense to me. Soon as I found out the price of neo woofers was skyrocketing, I cancelled plans for an 8-ohm version of my Thunderchild 12 woofer and immediately ordered another batch of the already-established 4-ohm 12" models. Glad I did.
 
#508
alexclaber said:
From my perspective as another manufacturer, there are three big issues with neodymium:

1. It's become so expensive that it's impossible to absorb the increase in cost and although we're simply passing on part of the direct cost that not only affects our actual profit per unit it also reduces our percentage profit margin which isn't good for cashflow (which is the biggest challenge for small and growing businesses).

2. It's availability is uncertain so you're at risk of building a whole product range which is reliant on a commodity that you may not be able to get in a few months time. That isn't a problem for DIYer (or a 'custom' builder) because you only need one or two cabs and then you're sorted - but for a manufacturer it's the difference between making money, paying wages and staying in business, or folding. Also the price volatility is an absolute nightmare from a business planning and accounting sense.

3. The uncertainty of availability and the volatility of the price means that OEM manufacturers are less keen to work with it because their R&D costs could end up being spread over a very small batch of drivers (which thus end up making a loss for them) if market conditions conspire against you.

Therefore, right now, most of our R&D energy is going on neo-free solutions!
Click to expand...

Well said, Alex. Thanks for dropping by!

Duke
 
#512
OK, got to play the Tots for about 1 hour today...the neighbours were gone so I turned the volume up a little more.....nice crisp sound, not muddy, sounded quite good but when I plugged in to the MB combo and NY121 cab it was a bit muddier but so warm...I don't know how to say this but I kind of like the MB's sound better, not that the Tots are bad they are just too crisp for me.....will it be different when the speakers have been played for a few more hours? Is it because the cabs are so much smaller? I hope the neighbours go out again tomorrow so I can try this again and see if adding more bass would make a difference.....the Tots are just so perfect every other way, size and weight but those MB's are so much warmer even with the tweet on 1/4 and that awful piezo in the combo.....maybe I'll try the NY cab with one Tot and see what that sounds like....I was really hoping the Tots would do it for me maybe it'll be different at the jam on Wednesday, I hope so......
 
#513
Both the woofer and the tweeter in my TC (acoustic-friendly) seemed to change tone over several hours of usage when I first got it, but that's not to say you shouldn't be using different settings than you use with the MB combo, which sounds like you would probably want to regardless. I really like using the tone control with the TC. I'm sure your results will depend tremendously on what bass you're using with the pickup inductance, capacitor on the tone pot, and the cable capacitance. With a passive tone control, the coloration from the capacitor isn't really taking affect until about 4 on the taper, which means you're free to use down to there to take out the accentuation you get from your cable and pickup in the upper mids, which could possibly be your problem. I like using mine around 2 or 3 with a P or J-bass so I can get a little more emphasis around 250 and slightly reduce the content above. Be sure to run the tots with moderate volume while you're breaking them in! I feel if you're using both at once, you're working neither very hard and it could potentially take considerably longer for you to get a great impression of what you will have to work with.

Something worth noting - Duke worked some of his crossover wizardry on the tots, so you're getting considerably more extension into the highs than the woofer would have on its own in addition to smoother upper-mids (he took out the spike), which is part of why you can hear content up there you might not get with some other conventional bass woofers.
 
#515
Well I was a/b'ing them on flat settings first and all knobs set the same to really see what was the difference between the cabs.....with those settings I preferred the MB warmth but the Tots sounded fantastic just not as warm but the voicing was way nicer than the MB's....so next a/b'ing I'll be twiddling the knobs to see if I can bring the Tots warmer (low mids I guess) and yes I did not use the filter knobs today but I will next time....I might just get a Streamliner and see how warmer that little amp is (but keep the LMII, I just love that little head), one thing I did notice was that I preferred the tone without effects, I might get a Diamond Comp to fatten the sound a little and keep my Xotic BB on the board and take my DHA off the board and keep it for recording or the few times I might use FOH without an amp (it's a nice pedal) but I had it set for pretty much the same tone I was getting without it and it's big and heavy so I might just put a Tone Hammer or my BDDI in it's place or maybe my Exciter since it has a DI also.......so I'm not saying I don't like my Tots, not at all, I just need to adjust to them as the size and weight will make it less painful to keep gigging and playing

I was using an active/passive with rounds and then switched to a passive with flats, the volume was around 9.....and yes, I didn't need a tweet, got all the highs I needed even with the passive and I even turned the treble down a little at one point, will try a bit more of that next time too and see if that helps get a bit more warmth, maybe the drivers only need some breaking in after all......I usually buy used and broken in amps and cabs so I'm not used to new ones......
 
#516
I just like stressing that there's not really a "flat" with a passive bass, so you could easily find that your cable is causing a resonance where you don't really want it. Having the tone knob all the way up creates a resonance, often in the upper mids, but usually this resonance is not heard as well as the greater spike in the upper mids coming from the woofer (often warm to bright). The pickup/cable resonance is likely to be a bit higher up (3-5 kHz) and considerably less pleasant. You then have the option of using a low capacitance cable (resonances even higher up will sound sweeter) or simply dialing back the tone at the bass. It's a lot easier to play with the tone knob if you're getting clarity from the speaker.

I like the EQ points on the Streamliner (1.6-2.6 kHz is a great range to "add warmth" you might often get with a conventional woofer), but I doubt it's necessary to switch amps, as the LMII is plenty warm (JimmyM might chime in :D). I really recommend trying only one tot at a time during the break in period so you don't give them such an easy time together.
 
#517
One at a time.....hmmmm....OK.....so I'm making it easy on them if I play them together......OK.....that's interesting......by the way, forgot to mention I had the tone knob on the bass all the way down......normally I have it between 5 and 8 but for this exercise I've been turning it off altogether

Been listening to what I recorded tonight and I have to admit I love both the Tots and the MB's and if I break in those Tots properly, I'm sure the MB's will be going...thanks for your help Derek
 
#519
Derek, thanks for helping out here.

After a/b'ing the cab both ways, I decided against using the response shaping circuitry in the Tots. Wasn't clearly a net benefit, and added some unwanted weight.

I'm not surprised that some bass boostage might be required on the Tots; they really push the small-box end of the envelope. However with their long excursion and flared ports, they should be able to take it.

Unfortunately I probably know less about the changes that take place during break-in than my customers do, so I'll defer to you on that.
 
#520
Hi Duke
Those Tots sure sound nice....I'm just adjusting to them....never had new speakers before so have no idea what happens at the beginning......but as I said, I was just doing some flat tone a/b'ing and next time I'll be doing the knob twisting kind and I'm sure I'll find what I'm looking for before the end of the week.....but they sure sound sweet nonetheless...can't wait to hear them "bloom" with age......the build quality is excellent, the weight and size are splendid.....they are so "cute" I can't stop taking a peek everytime I walk by the staircase....yep, they're still there but once all that a/b'ing is done they'll move to their "rightful" resting place in the den with all my other stuff (I really must sell some).....thanks Duke
 
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