Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
AudioKinesis 1x12 Cab Part Two
- Thread starter Thor
- Start date
- Status
I would be careful about cutting the low mid control on the LMII, and the VLE (which is basically just a variable low pass) should remain off also.
I would again try this setting as a 'starting point' with your LMII:
Bass: noon
Low mids: noon
Upper mids: 9 o'clock
treble: noon
VLE: Off
VPF: 9 o'clock
That is the 'smooth, even' start point that I've found with the 3012HO (and other neo12) loaded one way small cabs (which again, yours might or might not be).
What this setting does is slightly boost the deep low end and upper treble, while slightly lowering the low mids (that is the impact of the VPF, and a little goes a long way there), and then the cut at a mid Q 800K smooths the upper mid peak that I am guessing is baked into the voicing of those cabs.
The Streamliner has that basic EQ curve kind of baked into it with the EQ set flat, but again, is a very different thing from the LMII in feel. I would work with the wonderful LMII for a while.
I have a general question as to what role cabinet size plays into all of this? These "super" cabs (i.e., Thunderchild, Berg HT112ER, Barefaced Compact) are said to have similar low end when compared to a physically bigger 2x12 or 4x10. Does that mean they have the same pant-flapping ability of the bigger cabs, as well? (I was thinking a bigger cab will still push more air due to greater internal volume, but maybe that is equalized due to the superior drivers in these super cabs?)
Depends on the 212 or 410! No easy answer.
In general, assuming you are comparing to a pretty good quality larger cab, these 'super 12' cabs will get you about 1/2 way between the 112 or 210 of the same manufacturer, and their 212 and 410 regarding volume and low end projection.
Hence, my feeling that my TC112 performs similarly (not tonally so much as volume-wise) with my old Epi310UL. My old 410UL would eat it for lunch (of course, at about 3 times the size!)
IMO and a bit of IME on this one. My AE212 will still outperform my TC112 at high volumes, but my TC112 will BURY an AE112, as another example.
alexclaber
Commercial User
The ability to move air and thus flap pants (or trousers in the UK unless you've forgotten to finish getting dressed) is dependant on the volume displacement of the speakers - i.e. total cone area multiplied by clean cone excursion.
Thus the Thunderchild, the Compact and the Big Baby have similar pant-flapping ability, with the HT112ER a fair way behind (maybe as much as the Midget). And that pant-flapping ability is similar to the better generic neo 2x12"s and 3x10"s and to even larger cabs with cheaper drivers.
The benefit of greater internal volume is you can get greater sensitivity at low frequencies but with the amount of power available from modern amps then volume displacement is the limiting factor in the lows (except when you're pushing for extremely deep bass extension from a small cab).
Thus the Thunderchild, the Compact and the Big Baby have similar pant-flapping ability, with the HT112ER a fair way behind (maybe as much as the Midget). And that pant-flapping ability is similar to the better generic neo 2x12"s and 3x10"s and to even larger cabs with cheaper drivers.
The benefit of greater internal volume is you can get greater sensitivity at low frequencies but with the amount of power available from modern amps then volume displacement is the limiting factor in the lows (except when you're pushing for extremely deep bass extension from a small cab).
Hey Alex,
From my experience with the HT112ER, not sure why, but it is within striking distance of the 3012LF type designs. Not quite, but much closer than most other 112s IMO. Not sure why. I also experienced this when a buddy of mine replaced the driver from his Hartke112 with supposedly the same non-neo eminence driver that Jim uses in the HT112ER, and in our A-B tests between that cab and the TC112 (and also a 'real' HT112ER), while the tone was a bit different, the absolute volume prior to compression was pretty darn close.
IME there.
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
We'd have to stipulate what comprises "the amount of sound" for your statement to be true.
I've heard plenty of bass-deficient cabs that sounded much "louder" than a full-range cabinet because the accentuated midrange is perceived as being "louder" than a bass frequency at the same measured level (Fletcher/Munson).
When I hear the phrase "moving more air," I think of cabs that put out enough low bass to exercise the cabinet's ports; a full-range cab or sub-woofer will definitely "move more air" than a cabinet that rolls off at 100Hz. But, it may not be perceived as sounding "as loud."
Sound pressure level at <the frequency at which you perceive pants flapping> -- Duke's cab is going to be in the 95db range down there (about similar to a conventional 2x10).
A fEarful 15/6 is around 97db in the pants flapping region. A typical 3x10 is right around the same.
That's at 1w/1m of course.
My assumption is pants-flapping is around ~80-200hz. Roughly.
Now, what's funny and interesting about this is that since basses don't put out sine waves, your overall volume at 80hz might actually be limited by your 40hz displacement limits in many cases.
So while a conventional cab can put out a ton of sound at 80hz, 120hz, etc., its inability to crank the 40hz might be what causes it to start distorting (a typical E-string thump will have a bunch of 41hz, 82hz, and 123hz content). All numbers are rough.
* also didn't touch on the impedance difference. Duke's cab is going to be louder at the same knob turniness as a cab of the same specs at 8 ohms due to lower impedance.
A fEarful 15/6 is around 97db in the pants flapping region. A typical 3x10 is right around the same.
That's at 1w/1m of course.
My assumption is pants-flapping is around ~80-200hz. Roughly.
Now, what's funny and interesting about this is that since basses don't put out sine waves, your overall volume at 80hz might actually be limited by your 40hz displacement limits in many cases.
So while a conventional cab can put out a ton of sound at 80hz, 120hz, etc., its inability to crank the 40hz might be what causes it to start distorting (a typical E-string thump will have a bunch of 41hz, 82hz, and 123hz content). All numbers are rough.
* also didn't touch on the impedance difference. Duke's cab is going to be louder at the same knob turniness as a cab of the same specs at 8 ohms due to lower impedance.
alexclaber
Commercial User
That sounds about right Ken! The TC112 (not the TC Electronics 1x12" cab, that's leagues behind) Compact and Big Baby all have a volume displacement of about 500cc. Typical ferrite 12"s are 150cc-240cc. The Midget is 330cc. My guess is the HT112ER is somewhere around that point.
Bear in mind that your ears hear ratios and that if you're referring to volume as loudness then the midrange behaviour will skew your interpretation. But my statement "a fair way behind" does agree with your experience - just that my statement is from a linear engineering perspective and yours is from a logarithmic listening perspective!
Bear in mind that your ears hear ratios and that if you're referring to volume as loudness then the midrange behaviour will skew your interpretation. But my statement "a fair way behind" does agree with your experience - just that my statement is from a linear engineering perspective and yours is from a logarithmic listening perspective!
Thanks Kjung......those settings are pretty close to what I ended up with this afternoon......I'll fine tune it tomorrow with your exact settings and see what happens......but I'm getting pretty happy with what I heard today, the BDDI was pretty close to the MB tone with a blanket on it so I'll keep working with the DHA....I tried some of the old pedals I had put away in a box and frankly loved what everyone of them did to the tone to the point where "be damned the MB cabs", I'm keeping the Tots and the Markbass stuff is for sale......my ears have finally heard the calling of the Tots....so to speak.....LOL.....I think my ears might have finally "gotten it"......
I was looking at page 16 of the LMII owner's manual, which you can find Invalid Link Removed
I now think dialing the "high" knob back would be more in line with what you're looking for. The specs sheet gives the impression the effect might be up in a range not even produced by most passive basses, but the graphs tell a different story. The ability to take out over 10 dB at 3 kHz might get you really far. I wouldn't be afraid to dial it all the way back if it sounds good!
I now think dialing the "high" knob back would be more in line with what you're looking for. The specs sheet gives the impression the effect might be up in a range not even produced by most passive basses, but the graphs tell a different story. The ability to take out over 10 dB at 3 kHz might get you really far. I wouldn't be afraid to dial it all the way back if it sounds good!
At extreme settings, the treble control starts to act like the VLE. IMO and IME, that isn't really where the issues are with these types of one way cabs. A modest cut of the hi mid control will reduce that 600-2K range, centered around 1K, which really smooths the top end of some neo drivers out without totally sucking the life out of the top end or the tone.
Of course, doesn't hurt to turn some knobs and see what it sound like!
That sounds about right Ken! The TC112 (not the TC Electronics 1x12" cab, that's leagues behind) Compact and Big Baby all have a volume displacement of about 500cc. Typical ferrite 12"s are 150cc-240cc. The Midget is 330cc. My guess is the HT112ER is somewhere around that point.
Bear in mind that your ears hear ratios and that if you're referring to volume as loudness then the midrange behaviour will skew your interpretation. But my statement "a fair way behind" does agree with your experience - just that my statement is from a linear engineering perspective and yours is from a logarithmic listening perspective!
+1 I was using TC112 as shorthand for the Thunderchild.
And, makes sense. Thanks!
It looks like you would need to make a very sizable cut at 800 Hz to get some around 2 kHz or up at 3, which I can't help but feel is at least part of what loopee is talking about with the notions of warmth from the MB and "presence" from the tots. The tots use an 8-ohm version of the TC speaker, with the resonance somewhere between 1.6 and 2 kHz if I remember it right, which is a similar location to the 3012HO, although I don't know if their corresponding highend above the resonance is similar as well. I wouldn't be surprised if loopee's difficult is in part with the resonance and if right answer is dialing both the highs and the high mids back a little to best control all the content at 1 kHz and above.
Trying something different for my gig tomorrow. The keyboardist was complaining about his roland amp at rehearsal, and the horn player complained about his heavy/crappy amp at the last gig, so I said I could bring my mixer and run everything thru my cab. That would be bass, keyboard, sax, and trumpet. We'll see how it goes. I got 500 watts and a hpf set to 24db/octave @ 35hz.
Seems like you might have to fire the cab across the stage (assuming the two band members you refer to are not standing out in front of your cab).
If you have a really active keys person, that might be a lot of sound coming out of your cab -- thinking about separation of sonic info, but I guess it might not hurt too much to try.
I've heard some keyboardist that I don't think I'd like having their sound coming through a shared cab as the only source on stage.
Care to elaborate on that second part? What's bad about a lot of sound coming out of it? That's what happens with PA speakers right?
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
I agree. As a bassist, I definitely don't want more of anything through my on-stage bass cabinet than I'd want through my floor wedge - especially keyboards and kick drum.
That said, my guess is that the TC will work very well as a small PA cab, sidefill, or vertically-oriented stage monitor.
Can you tell I'm still jonesing for a pair of TCAFs (plus small subs) as a small hi-fi PA rig?
- Status
