B string is… flat?

[Karl Kaminski]

Question for everyone here:





I was using La Bella's 30-118 before--I hate big strings--but my tech kept pestering about finding a larger C string. IIRC, it wasn't a setup issue; he just thought it was too flexible on a short-scale bass. Anyway, I don't see him anymore. I was only seeing him because I wasn't confident setting up a 6-string short scale bass with a double-action truss rod at first.

yes, finding a variety of short scale string sets is limited challenging. and it compound if you are looking for specifics features (core/mass/wrap/etc). Welcome to the "rabbit hole"

The thing is, what I've noticed is that some of string manufacturers will do 5-string sets with a .120, .125 or .130 B but will only do 6-string sets with a .130 B: D'Addario, Ernie Ball, Dunlop. I guess SIT (120, 125, 130), DR (125, 130), and La Bella (118, 125, 130) offer smaller Bs, but those are harder to find in Canada.

I guess what I'm wondering is, it a balance thing? Does adding the C require a bigger B?

no. manufacturers are trying to average a 'balanced feel' across the string set. Each string is independently intonated and doesn't rely on one another to be intonated in a convention modern hardware setup. i.e. the size of the C has no baring on the size of the B and their ability to be intonated

 

[trout fishing]

OP still hasn't seemed to address the easiest suggest solutions offered here. And as recently added, 'low break angle' over the saddle can definitely affect the string oscillation/intonation/tone. So go back:

• measure out the reference point (adding the diameter of the string, lengthening the mensure towards the bridge)
• check the tuning,
• set intonation.
• if unable to set, raise the saddle a small amount (adding a 1/32 or 2/32) It should not be noticeable in the hand (unless you have yet undisclosed physical issues) *And this may not even be needed once you lengthen the string length–as you lengthen the string length (move the saddle towards the bridge the break angle general increases.)
• check the tuning,
• set intonation.
• if unable to set intonation try another string (old or new)

You don't have to keep these adjustments, but you'll learn why your bass (or string) is causing the issue.

I don't understand what you mean by measuring out the reference point?

 

[Karl Kaminski]

measure the distance from the nut to the [center of the 12th fret].
^^^that distance is the same as [the center of the 12th fret] to your saddle adding ± the diameter of the string.
adjust your saddle back to match that measurement and start the intonation process.

 

[trout fishing]

measure the distance from the nut to the [center of the 12th fret].
^^^that distance is the same as [the center of the 12th fret] to your saddle adding ± the diameter of the string.
adjust your saddle back to match that measurement and start the intonation process.

So, the distance between the nut and the centre of the 12th fret is 15" The distance between the centre of the 12th fret and the saddle at the position it is in the picture below is 15 1/2. The diameter of the string .130 ... your imperial measurement system is confusing. I'm not sure how to add .130 to 15 and a half?

For a second I was worried the luthier had f' up (I wouldn't be in the least surprised), so I did the same calculations on my Mustang. From nut to centre of the 12th fret, it's 14 1/2. From centre of the 12th fret to the start of the screw, it's 15.

By the way, thank you very much for your help!!

 

[96tbird]

So, the distance between the nut and the centre of the 12th fret is 15" The distance between the centre of the 12th fret and the saddle at the position it is in the picture below is 15 1/2. The diameter of the string .130 ... your imperial measurement system is confusing. I'm not sure how to add .130 to 15 and a half?

For a second I was worried the luthier had f' up (I wouldn't be in the least surprised), so I did the same calculations on my Mustang. From nut to centre of the 12th fret, it's 14 1/2. From centre of the 12th fret to the start of the screw, it's 15.

By the way, thank you very much for your help!!


View attachment 7527392

Well, the string is .130 so just place the saddle one string thickness back from the “reference scale length.” Use metric if you want, just add the string thickness. Just judge it by eye.

 

[trout fishing]

OP said he thinks the big ole B isn’t sitting in the saddle properly. I think that’s the big problem here. That leaves two choices, file the saddle or smaller string.

Filing the saddle will run the black finish and the underlying chrome plating, and allow body salts under the plating, making it look like shi over time.

I’d put a .125 on there and carry on. I have one with a .130 (Ibby AGB205 short) on it and nobody got time (or need) for that!

I loosened the string to check. I mean, it looks like it fits, but it's not a snugged as I wish it were. I will most likely return to the .118 B or maybe .125. I hate big strings and I like loose--I use light tape wounds on my Mustang.

 

[Zooberwerx]

Great. Now I’m gonna have that playing in my head all day.

"GOOD HEAVENS, MISS SAKAMOTO. YOU’RE BEAUTIFUL!"​

Supposedly, the "professor" bugged Thomas Dolby throughout the shoot for his money so he had carfare to get home.

Riis

 

[trout fishing]

Well, the string is .130 so just place the saddle one string thickness back from the “reference scale length.” Use metric if you want, just add the string thickness. Just judge it by eye.

But what's the reference point? I was under the impression that it was 15 inches, which means the saddle can't reach 15+.130?

I'm pretty dumb for a guy with two master's degrees.

 

[Karl Kaminski]

yes, so check the intonation there the adjustment 'should be' close, *if not behind that point (toward the bridge).

>Generally, the more mass the string has, the farther back you'll need to set the saddle.

and keep in mind all of these are general practices. if the string wont intonate, try another string. if its the same mass (another .130" string) make notice of the saddle location for the next string.

 

[Karl Kaminski]

But what's the reference point? I was under the impression that it was 15 inches, which means the saddle can't reach 15+.130?

I'm pretty dumb for a guy with two master's degrees.

the more mass a string has (.130" diameter has more mass than a .118" string), the longer the string length will be (setting the saddle towards the bridge that is why you generally see a tapered saddle alignment; the higher strings have less mass and are set progressively forward. (You'll notice that the high C is closer to the reference measurement 30" than the lower strings)


don't worry about the math of it, just know that from 30" (or what ever your scale may be), the starting reference point—for a 'good' string—will be somewhat behind that reference point... in this case 30+" Just keep sliding the saddle back till it properly tunes.

I would 'start' with something like this, and adjust from there...

things that can be contrary to the above would be;

• bad string
• string not sitting on/in the saddle (ie string gauge too big for the saddle groove/seat)
• custom/personalize/mixed string sets

And ultimately... if you don't like the .130, just take it off and use your preference before going through all this setup.

 

[BrentD]

This may sound stupid / counterintuitive...I own the franchise...but I would raise the B string saddle by 1/6 turn (each screw), re-set the witness (!), and re-check intonation. Use normal fretting pressure. You shouldn't notice much of a difference under the fretting hand during normal play. I'm still of the suspicion that the issue resides with the contact / break angle from the B string > saddle > Riviera tuner. The saddle, in its current state, looks really low and I've seen scenarios where the string is actually resting on the supporting "sled" and not on the saddle itself.

In all fairness, the simple act of raising the saddle will draw the string sharper when fretting the 12th. Science (Thomas Dolby)!!


Riis

This is exactly what I was getting at!

 

[Zooberwerx]

This is exactly what I was getting at!

I'm just trying to break things down to those basic elements which constitute a proper string install. I'd much prefer to have it on my workbench: action > response > re-evaluate > action....we could get it sorted out in short-order. FWIW, I think that Swan's recommended settings (relief & string height) are a bit too optimistic for a short scale bass but maybe that's just me.

Riis

 

[trout fishing]

string not sitting on/in the saddle (ie too big a gauge string for the saddle groove/seat)

I’ll try to raise the action when I get a chance, but I think this is the most likely scenario. I detuned the string, without removing it from the head piece, so it was kind of hard to see, but it looked better than I remembered, although not ideal.

But I vividly recall emailing Riviera when I first put on the .130 string because it didn’t look like it fit the saddle properly. It must mean something if I went as far as emailing them.

 

[Karl Kaminski]

yes, a pinched string (both at the nut or the saddle) will not intonate properly. often giving a weird overtone to the string

 

[trout fishing]

I'm just trying to break things down to those basic elements which constitute a proper string install. I'd much prefer to have it on my workbench: action > response > re-evaluate > action....we could get it sorted out in short-order. FWIW, I think that Swan's recommended settings (relief & string height) are a bit too optimistic for a short scale bass but maybe that's just me.

Riis

Are recommended measurements different for long scale basses versus short scale basses? I guess so because short scale strings vibrate more? Or is it the other way around?

I setup my Mustang according to Fender’s guide for 9.5 radius fretboards (I think I actually went lower than recommended). I don’t have any problems there, although I do play very lightly.

For the Swan, I took the recommended measurements from the Fodera videos (long scale), because I figured the bass (16” radius, 6 strings, etc.) is more akin to 6-string Fodera than a Fender.

 

[Zooberwerx]

I’ll try to raise the action when I get a chance, but I think this is the most likely scenario. I detuned the string, without removing it from the head piece, so it was kind of hard to see, but it looked better than I remembered, although not ideal.

But I vividly recall emailing Riviera when I first put on the .130 string because it didn’t look like it fit the saddle properly. It must mean something if I went as far as emailing them.

How so? IIRC, Swan's reply was the saddle / assembly would accommodate something even larger in diameter (.170?). I wouldn't consider .130 to be extreme or extraordinary.

Can you post a true side / lateral view (from the B side) for some addt'l detail? Looking down on the bridge has but limited value. Also, go back, re-read my post #36, and act on that first. Here's the neat part: it's reversible if of only limited or zero value.

Riis

 

[Zooberwerx]

Are recommended measurements different for long scale basses versus short scale basses? I guess so because short scale strings vibrate more? Or is it the other way around?

I setup my Mustang according to Fender’s guide for 9.5 radius fretboards (I think I actually went lower than recommended). I don’t have any problems there, although I do play very lightly.

For the Swan, I took the recommended measurements from the Fodera videos (long scale), because I figured the bass (16” radius, 6 strings, etc.) is more akin to 6-string Fodera than a Fender.

Radius, scale length, string type all fold into the equation....makes for a lengthy discussion. I rely on a 40 y.o. comment from a Rick Turner (RIP) gear review suggesting that shorter scale basses (....in this case, it was the new 32" Kubicki Ex-Factor) require slightly higher action and that's a product of relief and string height. So be it! No way will Fodera 34"+ long scale parameters translate to a 30" although your forethought makes some sense.

Riis

 

[96tbird]

But what's the reference point? I was under the impression that it was 15 inches, which means the saddle can't reach 15+.130?

I'm pretty dumb for a guy with two master's degrees.

The reference point is the scale length from the nut to the saddle. I believe you said 30.5”. Measure 30.5 from the nut, move the saddle point there, and slide it back the thickness of the B string. You should be very close then, fine tune from there as needed.

 

[trout fishing]

Good news:

1. I got to intonate the string by raising it.

2. I looked at my emails with Riviera, the bridge manufacturer. They said .130 should fit fine. I had also asked them if I should use tapered or non-tapered strings. They said tapered, but then I think I read that tapered strings were not recommended on a through-body bridge. They said the max for a non-tapered string is .165 and tapered .190.

Bad news:

The string now buzzes like crazy. The saddle is as close to the neck as it can be. The break angle is very flat. It also doesn't look like the witness point worked. If you look at the picture, you can clearly see the witness points of the other strings.

I have to go now. I'll do some more testing later or this weekend.

 

[trout fishing]

I got it!

Set the relief at .012, raised the action:

C-G: 2/32
D: 2 1/2/32
A-E: 3/32
B: 3 1/2/32

Thanks everyone!