Double Bass Bach Suite 1 - questions from Hillwilliam country

[Chris Fitzgerald]

As a note/question to all who are familiar with various editions and versions of the suites, I will be beginning to work through the 2nd suite in full in the next year or so in the hope of completing a pizz edition of it. I have always played it in the original key of Dmi but am open to other options. I saw Kieran Hanlon's presentation of his Bach Project at ISB and it is pretty similar to the project I have been doing for pizz editions in many ways. He has been working with the second suite in Emi, and what I heard sounded good.

Any info on editions of the second suite in keys other than Dmi would be appreciated! I would like to do some research to find a good key for the entire suite.

 

[damonsmith]

1. Once thumb position isn't a struggle, playing Bach in the low positions is WAY harder. All that shifting and jumping around!

2. Before all these incredible musicians in the last few decades, I used to think #2, and more specifically Edgar Meyer's #2 was the only where the bass could really shine maybe even more than 'cello, and I think it is because Dmin lays so nice on the instrument.

As a note/question to all who are familiar with various editions and versions of the suites, I will be beginning to work through the 2nd suite in full in the next year or so in the hope of completing a pizz edition of it. I have always played it in the original key of Dmi but am open to other options. I saw Kieran Hanlon's presentation of his Bach Project at ISB and it is pretty similar to the project I have been doing for pizz editions in many ways. He has been working with the second suite in Emi, and what I heard sounded good.

Any info on editions of the second suite in keys other than Dmi would be appreciated! I would like to do some research to find a good key for the entire suite.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

1. Once thumb position isn't a struggle, playing Bach in the low positions is WAY harder. All that shifting and jumping around!

I obviously don't have the arco chops to speak to the right hand aspect of this, but I would have to agree as regards the left hand. Much easier up high. But as I say more than once in the presentation, all the more reason to work on them down low where we live, eat, and breathe!

2. Before all these incredible musicians in the last few decades, I used to think #2, and more specifically Edgar Meyer's #2 was the only where the bass could really shine maybe even more than 'cello, and I think it is because Dmin lays so nice on the instrument.

True. But Edgar plays them up high as well. It was nice to see the openness of the classical bassists at ISB to the notion of bringing them down into the range where we spend the largest amount of our time. I expected more pushback on the idea, but as you say the biggest objection most had was about how shagging hard they are to execute down there. It was also good to see more of the classical guys opening up to less traditional fingering concepts in situations where the music doesn't fit the instrument in the usual ways. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and a lot of folks were espousing newer techniques like relaxed/fluid left hand position and lots of lower thumb position playing. Which apparently has begun to be referred to as "thumbage".

I used to be against the idea of changing the keys, but having heard so many pieces in solo tuning that end up not in the key they purport to be, and hearing people tuning to wacky esoteric A's that basically sound like other keys to me, I don't really feel that way any more.

Ray Brown used to like to play tunes in G because of the way that they lay on the bass, and even built arrangements where everybody else solos in F but the whole band goes up to G when it's his turn. Why not? For me with the suites at this point, it will have to be a long game where the key is chosen to fit where the entire suite fits best. And, of course, whatever key is used, I'm going to have to get used to the idea that it's OK to do some arranging to serve the music when the written "celloisms" don't really work on the bass.

 

[damonsmith]

Also, it is striking that your versions so often just seem a note or two away from one of David Holland's solos on on either One's All or Emerald Tears.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Also, it is striking that your versions so often just seem a note or two away from one of David Holland's solos on on either One's All or Emerald Tears.

I hadn't thought of that, but will check that out now that you mention it. I can promise that I didn't change much in the 1st suite editions, but I'm sure that will change with some of the later suites. Your comment does leave me wondering about Holland's history with Bach, though!

 

[MrSidecar]

1. Once thumb position isn't a struggle, playing Bach in the low positions is WAY harder. All that shifting and jumping around!

I'm late to this thread, so everybody forgive me if I'm just reiterating common wisdom or things said already.
Back in the day when I worked with NHØP as my teacher, he tuned me in to rethink the shifting/jumping aspect on prelude to #2. -This is maybe old news to anyone, but for me that was the first time I really checked out to incorporate open strings and third position/neck heel (D on the g string) into playing. Fingerboard economics if you will. Suddenly especially this prelude is way easier even in the lower register. (D minor lies indeed beautifully).

It comes at a price though- those fingerings are not always ideal or sometimes yielding downright ugly results when playing with the bow, as the open strings have a tendency to stick out in an unpleasant way.

Best
Sidecar

 

[MrSidecar]

As a note/question to all who are familiar with various editions and versions of the suites, I will be beginning to work through the 2nd suite in full in the next year or so in the hope of completing a pizz edition of it. I have always played it in the original key of Dmi but am open to other options. I saw Kieran Hanlon's presentation of his Bach Project at ISB and it is pretty similar to the project I have been doing for pizz editions in many ways. He has been working with the second suite in Emi, and what I heard sounded good.

Any info on editions of the second suite in keys other than Dmi would be appreciated! I would like to do some research to find a good key for the entire suite.

I remember from literally 25 years ago (gosh...) that a teacher I had for a very brief period gave me a copy of the prelude notated in e-minor. Looked like Edition Peters just like the "original" version i knew and use even now. Other than that, I don't know of any others.

Depending on what one would want to achieve with this (this is kind of a rocky road if you want to reach perfection in any given key- then it would be better to either search for an edition in that key or write a transposition), I found it a very fun, humbling, and incredibly rewarding exercise to transpose the music by ear, on the instrument, to whatever key one desires.

Best
Sidecar

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I remember from literally 25 years ago (gosh...) that a teacher I had for a very brief period gave me a copy of the prelude notated in e-minor. Looked like Edition Peters just like the "original" version i knew and use even now. Other than that, I don't know of any others.

Depending on what one would want to achieve with this (this is kind of a rocky road if you want to reach perfection in any given key- then it would be better to either search for an edition in that key or write a transposition), I found it a very fun, humbling, and incredibly rewarding exercise to transpose the music by ear, on the instrument, to whatever key one desires.

Best
Sidecar

I will see if I can get my hands on the Peters edition. Was this Emi down low, or Emi Up high, or somewhere in between? I really like the way things lie in Dmi, but some of those repeated double stops are really low and something would have to be done with those passages to make them playable. Regarding the transposition by ear, I agree and that's sort of how I got started before I got the score. With a lot of recorded cello performances I was eventually surprised to see what the actual notation looked like, since the phrasing and personalization of the music often obscured things.

But any way it goes, the only perfection to be had in this endeavor has already been achieved by Bach. For me, the rest will involve some compromises, but I look forward to the challenge and know that whatever happens I will emerge a humbled but better player because of it.

 

[MrSidecar]

I will see if I can get my hands on the Peters edition. Was this Emi down low, or Emi Up high, or somewhere in between?

It was just a wholteone up as far as I remember- lowest note open E-string.

Best
Sidecar

 

[the_Ryan]

I will see if I can get my hands on the Peters edition. Was this Emi down low, or Emi Up high, or somewhere in between? I really like the way things lie in Dmi, but some of those repeated double stops are really low and something would have to be done with those passages to make them playable. Regarding the transposition by ear, I agree and that's sort of how I got started before I got the score. With a lot of recorded cello performances I was eventually surprised to see what the actual notation looked like, since the phrasing and personalization of the music often obscured things.

But any way it goes, the only perfection to be had in this endeavor has already been achieved by Bach. For me, the rest will involve some compromises, but I look forward to the challenge and know that whatever happens I will emerge a humbled but better player because of it.

I would suggest transposing it yourself because the old Peters editions have some blatant typos.

I also know some people who play suite 2 in A minor, so that could be another option.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I would suggest transposing it yourself because the old Peters editions have some blatant typos.

I also know some people who play suite 2 in A minor, so that could be another option.

No worries - I'll be doing so many changes I'll definitely do it myself. I like the Henle urtext edition a lot, and haven't found any clunkers in it yet, so that's my main resource. And I'll look into A minor... thanks!

 

[Lee Moses]

I worked with NHØP

 

[MrSidecar]

Lee,

easy. Although I remember before it started I thought the same . But, somewhere even legends are living their daily life, and he was (as is typical for the Danish) very approachable and an all-around fantastic and down to earth guy.

Best
Sidecar

 

[damonsmith]

I hadn't thought of that, but will check that out now that you mention it. I can promise that I didn't change much in the 1st suite editions, but I'm sure that will change with some of the later suites. Your comment does leave me wondering about Holland's history with Bach, though!

It is probably more that most of his own music is very cleanly played, in the low register and probably has less blues material than other jazz bassists - which is honest. Emerald Tears in particular is both solidly "European" and a jazz album.

 

[CaseyVancouver]

The Bach Cello Suites are open to many interpretations, which is part of the fun.

There is debate that they were even written for the cello and No. 6 was written for a five string Violone tuned C-G-D-A-E and may of had gut frets. Our basses sound an octave below cello so perhaps there is merit to play in thumb position. The baroque music was written when only gut strings were available and bows were not like today. The suites would of sound different 300 years ago.

Casals was the artist who made them famous of course. He stumbled across them as a youth in a used book store. He took them very seriously and did not record them until middle age. In later years he said he could still smell the store mustiness (and the towns ocean) of the old leather bound copy. He would practice one suite a day then suite 6 on both Saturday and Sunday as it was so difficult.

Some artists have recorded the suites more than once in their career as their interpretation evolved.

I've been using the Lieff and Marie Rosanoff 1961 edited suites. Professor Rosanoff was an early student of Pablo Casals, and later was Martita's 1954 teacher in New York. (Martita married Casals in 1957 at age 21, he was 81).

I use this Rosanoff edition as it closely follows Casals fingering and technique. My bass is tuned in 5ths and the suites sit nicely on it. They also sound great on acoustic guitar and a trumpet friend uses them in practice.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Have been working daily on suite no. 2, and think I can see a path forward for the whole thing in Dmi. Spoke at length with Kieran Hanlon from Freedonia yesterday about the subject. His editions of the 2nd suite Prelude and Sarabande are in Emi and lay nicely but he is looking at them as isolated etudes and doesn't see the whole suite in that key as very helpful. I played through his editions of those movements yesterday and learned a few alternate fingerings I wouldn't have thought of but will tuck away for further use.

It is good that the more I explore the subject, the more I encounter an openness among classical bassists to the idea of the suites in lower range, and to the notion that it is perfectly fine to omit/transpose anything that either doesn't work or is extremely impractical; it's about the music, and if they are being used as etudes, they should be practical. When this subject comes up, I hear more and more people quoting Paul Ellison, who has said for years that "there are no bass police. If there were, we would all be in jail."

 

[unbrokenchain]

This thread has had the side-effect of reminding me that pizz bass can be a very melodic instrument. Most of you jazz guys probably already think of the instrument that way, but I guess I tend to think of pizz as more rhythmic in nature and arco as the melodic side of the instrument. Hearing pizz lines played with delicate dynamics is something I've overlooked and not even really tried much to do myself. Thanks for the inspiration here, carry on..

Also Chris your words in the video lecture are every bit as eloquent as your playing. Top notch work, could fit in any academic circle.

 

[CaseyVancouver]

More interpretation of the Suite 1 praeludium, with suggestions by a very experienced musician. I hope Chris does not mind we explore the suites in this manner and get a bit off his original topic.

Benjamin Zander, an English conductor, cellist and musical director of the Boston Philharmonic, critiques an already fine performance by a young cellist. He points out that Bach should be played with joy by the performer, and that joy is contagious to the audience. He also suggests that the bass root notes in the suites (which we all make a big deal about, since we are bassists) perhaps could be played blended into the arpeggios.

His Bach Suite ideas may be fresh to us bassist's and cellist's. Some of which we could use, some not, but still interesting ideas.

 

[LouisF]

Just a minor correction: Zander is the conductor of the Boston Philharmonic, not the BSO.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

More interpretation of the Suite 1 praeludium, with suggestions by a very experienced musician. I hope Chris does not mind we explore the suites in this manner and get a bit off his original topic.
[/MEDIA]

Not at all! I find this kind of thing fascinating. I am of two minds about the message here. On the one hand, the music says a lot by itself, and maybe it doesn't need the performers input. On the practical side, it looks so easy when a cellist plays it and I don't think I could ever get that kind of effortlessness on a bass tuned in 4ths. On the other side of the equation, at some point I like to hear the performer's input, and I don't think the original performance sounded depressed at all. I wonder what Zander would say about Bernstein's conducting (which I love).