Double Bass Bach Suite 1 - questions from Hillwilliam country

[garrett2]

The best guide to playing Bach I have found is Queyras extraordinary series of videos on each movement of each Cello Suite.

Prelude 1

His new recording of the First Prelude (the whole set gets released on the 20th) is the best I've heard. I know that's a big claim, but it is! I think even his teacher Bylsma might agree. It's on all streaming services.

 

[BargeOn]

You may find some useful tips here

 

[Huy Nguyen]

@Chris Fitzgerald i thought about starting my own thread and titling it "stupid bach stunts" but decided to add to here as I'm digger deeper into your bebop/bach thing and find it brilliant (yes i took a hiatus on bass and only looking at it now). Esp now that i'm in 5ths tuning and get to enjoy home court advantage of cello tuning.

And hey, if it's cool for Jon Batiste to do it?, why not?


I have no interest in learning all the suites, just some choice pieces to develop technique and certainly applying bebop themes (and even reinterpretations to add triplets or even swing feel). The other Stupid Bach Stunt is that i'm just digging deep with one section rather learning the whole piece (I'll get to the rest at some point) but in Suite 1, I'm only playing up to the fermata.... and then transposing that whole section into another key. Why not from a jazz players perspective? The shifts..... omg even on 5ths. Or even taking it to just a subset of strings. Lots of possibilities

 

[SteveCS]

in Suite 1, I'm only playing up to the fermata.... and then transposing that whole section into another key.

Why don't you try preparing the modulation by within the line leading to the fermata. For example, if you want to go up a tone, play the first half of bar 22 D, A, E, G#, B, D#, E. Then the 2nd half of bar 22 starts on B instead of A.

 

[SteveCS]

Why don't you try preparing the modulation by within the line leading to the fermata. For example, if you want to go up a tone, play the first half of bar 22 D, A, E, G#, B, D#, E. Then the 2nd half of bar 22 starts on B instead of A.

Or even D, G#, E, G#, etc

 

[garrett2]

The First Gigue already has lots of swing feel!

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

@hdiddy Glad to hear you're getting back into it! The longer I play these suites, the more I come to appreciate their role in my development as a bassist. Although I did eventually record the entire first suite, I don't feel the need to do that with all of the others. It's better practice for me to pick and choose which movements from which suites will be doable as stand alones and work those up. Due to the fact that they were originally written for cello in 5ths (C-G-D-A), some of the movements contain pedal points and other technical hurdles that make them nearly impossible to speak well in the lower registers in 4ths as i like to play them. And since I'm playing them pizz with bridge cables, there is also little point in taking them up into the original cello range as most of the classical players do these days.

Even so, they are still a treasure, and some of the best etudes any of us will ever have for the bass if we decide to get over our perfectionism and just dive in.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

As an example, I had to look for it for a minute, but here's a version of Courante from Suite 2 that I made four or five years ago to test a new audio interface. It's a movement that lays pretty well down low with only a few transpositions needed to keep in in range. I need to dig this back out and record it again; hopefully better this time! Dropbox

 

[lurk]

My daily ritual is this. Monthly I take a small section from one of the suites that seems like a musical phrase, maybe 4-8 bars. I analyze it in terms of jazz harmony and write in the changes. It's amazing how that cat could stitch together those chords. After memorizing it I play it once to my satisfaction pizz and once arco. Then I "roll dice" to find a number from 1 to 12 to pick a new key and shed it in that key pizz and arco. Then I spend some time improvising on the excerpt in that new key trying to use the ideas Bach did to connect those changes. Next month, new excerpt. This all takes 20-30 minutes and covers a lot of the stuff I want to hit. I generally play as notated rather than at pitch. The older I get the less fascination I have with thumb position.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

My daily ritual is this. Monthly I take a small section from one of the suites that seems like a musical phrase, maybe 4-8 bars. I analyze it in terms of jazz harmony and write in the changes. It's amazing how that cat could stitch together those chords. After memorizing it I play it once to my satisfaction pizz and once arco. Then I "roll dice" to find a number from 1 to 12 to pick a new key and shed it in that key pizz and arco. Then I spend some time improvising on the excerpt in that new key trying to use the ideas Bach did to connect those changes. Next month, new excerpt. This all takes 20-30 minutes and covers a lot of the stuff I want to hit. I generally play as notated rather than at pitch. The older I get the less fascination I have with thumb position.

Yes exactly! This is what I'm doing up to the fermata in Suite 1. And it's a hell of workout for both the ears and the hands. Mainly bc that it's structures around arps. I love this. I'll just go pick out the segments I like and kinda treat them like licks. But I like the idea of adding in jazz language (enclosures, triplets, hammers, pull offs, etc).

@hdiddy Glad to hear you're getting back into it! The longer I play these suites, the more I come to appreciate their role in my development as a bassist. Although I did eventually record the entire first suite, I don't feel the need to do that with all of the others. It's better practice for me to pick and choose which movements from which suites will be doable as stand alones and work those up. Due to the fact that they were originally written for cello in 5ths (C-G-D-A), some of the movements contain pedal points and other technical hurdles that make them nearly impossible to speak well in the lower registers in 4ths as i like to play them. And since I'm playing them pizz with bridge cables, there is also little point in taking them up into the original cello range as most of the classical players do these days.

Even so, they are still a treasure, and some of the best etudes any of us will ever have for the bass if we decide to get over our perfectionism and just dive in.

Even the Red Weichs have to go kinda high for the low C string to speak. I don't know how it lays down on 4ths but say playing suite 1 in Ab or C is quite the challenge. Like you said in your ISB video when it's done right it's pleasurable and when it's off it's terrible and I know what I need to work on. I have dabbled with arco (more on that in another thread). It's super resonant in 5ths fs.

I feel like Suite 1 makes for a great recalibration repertoire to talk about a different thread.

 

[garrett2]

I can't recommend Hal Robinson's edition enough. It's sold exclusively by Robertson's. Working through the fingerings is an education in how to play Bach lines with elegance and drive.

 

[Mark_T]

I can't recommend Hal Robinson's edition enough. It's sold exclusively by Robertson's. Working through the fingerings is an education in how to play Bach lines with elegance and drive.

I use that edition too, with a few occasional deviations. The printed fingerings are mind-bending to me, even with experience using Rabbath/Petracchi/Moore techniques. For the most part, the moves are things that I have seen before but the synthesis of all these techniques to form the larger whole is just light-years beyond anywhere my brain has ever been.

In the Prelude I do have a few places where I deviate from Hal's printed fingerings but I have it on good authority that even Hal doesn't always agree with his former self. I also use some more traditional bowings.

Anyway, can't recommend the Robinson edition highly enough but it might be good to look at with a teacher.

 

[garrett2]

I use that edition too, with a few occasional deviations. The printed fingerings are mind-bending to me, even with experience using Rabbath/Petracchi/Moore techniques. For the most part, the moves are things that I have seen before but the synthesis of all these techniques to form the larger whole is just light-years beyond anywhere my brain has ever been.

In the Prelude I do have a few places where I deviate from Hal's printed fingerings but I have it on good authority that even Hal doesn't always agree with his former self. I also use some more traditional bowings.

Anyway, can't recommend the Robinson edition highly enough but it might be good to look at with a teacher.

It's a bit like learning logic by reading Gödel's proof! I definitely need help, but I'm amazed by them and I have brought them into my fingerings for the other suites as much as I can. In particular always having the thumb in the most rational place for the slurs. I wish he would do Suite 2!

I've been playing the suites with AMB/Bylsma bowings which add another layer of difficulty but are very rewarding. These sometimes conflict with the fingerings. For example in bar 14 of Minuet 1 the fingering I find catching the A with T after the open G does not sound good in the three note slur -- at least for me with my limited skills. Robinson's bowing are for a two note slur and then two detache notes -- which they work perfectly for and which they then set you up for the next passage. So I've been trying different things.

 

[Mark_T]

It's a bit like learning logic by reading Gödel's proof! I definitely need help, but I'm amazed by them and I have brought them into my fingerings for the other suites as much as I can. In particular always having the thumb in the most rational place for the slurs. I wish he would do Suite 2!

I've been playing the suites with AMB/Bylsma bowings which add another layer of difficulty but are very rewarding. These sometimes conflict with the fingerings. For example in bar 14 of Minuet 1 the fingering I find catching the A with T after the open G does not sound good in the three note slur -- at least for me with my limited skills. Robinson's bowing are for a two note slur and then two detache notes -- which they work perfectly for and which they then set you up for the next passage. So I've been trying different things.

Excellent analogy. I am also mostly sticking to the AMB bowings. My teacher pointed out a disagreement in pitch on the second page of the prelude (a noted B is sometimes played B-flat, and my other editions use the B-flat).

Rabbath published a 2nd suite which is worth a look but not as mind blowing. It might be hard to get your bands on, I was briefly unable to find mine a year or so ago and tried to order a replacement and couldn't find one anywhere. Luckily I ended up finding mine.

 

[the_Ryan]

It's a bit like learning logic by reading Gödel's proof! I definitely need help, but I'm amazed by them and I have brought them into my fingerings for the other suites as much as I can. In particular always having the thumb in the most rational place for the slurs. I wish he would do Suite 2!

I've been playing the suites with AMB/Bylsma bowings which add another layer of difficulty but are very rewarding. These sometimes conflict with the fingerings. For example in bar 14 of Minuet 1 the fingering I find catching the A with T after the open G does not sound good in the three note slur -- at least for me with my limited skills. Robinson's bowing are for a two note slur and then two detache notes -- which they work perfectly for and which they then set you up for the next passage. So I've been trying different things.View attachment 7112706

That particular bar works with the AMB/Bylsma bowing if you can play (either barred or rolled) fourths with the thumb knuckle and nail. The knuckle is on A, the nail is on E, and to play those 3 notes you roll to the nail, play E and G, and then roll back to the knuckle for the A.

 

[notabene]

This could be a novella, but I'll try to keep it short. I've been working on the first suite from the cello score in G (pizzicato...let the games begin! ), playing it as written and sounding down an octave from the cello realization. As an ignorant unwashed jazzer, I'm not sure if this is a common range to play it in, but I love the music and it's great intonation/technique practice and I'm going to stick with this approach for now. When it's ready, I want to record it, mostly for the hell of it, but also to critique the results from the listener's chair and hopefully learn something.

If anyone plays it in this register, a couple of questions:

1) What do you generally do when a note below open E is scored and you don't have an extension? I usually end up trying to find a way to transpose those passages in as musical a way as possible, but was wondering what others do.

2) Some of the triple stops seem very ergonomic for the cello, but not so much so for the bass. What are some of the ways that bassists who play the suite deal with this?

3) How do others finger the last 4 bars of the prelude, and what can be done about that last triple stop? I'm playing it as a double stop at the moment, but even when I get it in tune, it still seems unsatisfying.

Thanks in advance.

I'm in mexico at the moment, far from my bass(es), but I have loved playing Bach cello music for many years. Just play whatever is necessary to have the glory show through, with no guilt and great joy. The music is so good it can live without "purity" or guilt. For that matter matter, a bass is a wonderful instrument, but beauty may not be its virtue, as "beauty" is to a cello.

 

[LouisF]

+1 on Notabene's POV: I'm a total amateur/geezer but I have the old Peters edition on my stand and will work-through/play a suite every couple of weeks (i.e. a movement every few days). There are only 5 suites in the two volume edition. When I tried the 6th from another edition I quickly learned that that one will have to wait for my next lifetime.

Not to get crunchy/mushy/etc, I work on the suites more for their spiritual (?)/centering power than for my musicianship. I come close technically (mostly) but can still connect on another level with the music's depth. To take an analogy from my world in the theater: you don't need to be a great actor to read Shakespeare and by moved by his work.