Band looking to go IEM. Need advice.

[drpepper]

I wish we could bury this meme already. The ZS10s punch above their price point, but are large and have a thick nozzle, not going to fit everyone. Stock cable and tips are not great, so more $$ required there (Comply T-500 foams fit).

Wish I had seen your post before I took the time to reply in a much more long-winded way

 

[drpepper]

Good advice here already. I would only add: don't overlook the Presonus mixers, and get a good router. I use a rack mount splitter box and find that on the small stages we play on I don't need a splitter snake. I put the mixer rack next to the drums and everyone runs their XLRs there, and then the house snake can be placed next to the rack. If you play on larger stages then a splitter snake may be more useful, though.

Highlights that our situations can vary...one size can fit all but may not be the best fit for all.

Another suggestion would be to compare and, where possible, preview the control apps in demo mode to see if one in particular strikes a chord with you. It's often the case that whatever you use first does that and it takes a while to figure out where things that are less than ideal might have been hiding. Looking at them and kicking the tires vs actually using one might help.

 

[Ethereal Thorn]

I think that's rather hyperbolic and pretty unhelpful in this context. Many people are well served by the SE215, and by most measures, it can generally be described as a "good" or "decent" IEM at its product line tier, price point and for it's designed uses. It's an unfortunate bent of forums that hype and buzz from a handful of the most vocal members drown out comparative reason and create the appearance (and ultimately "forum fact") that because X can be judged, often on subjective bases, better than Y in some aspect or aspects, that this means that Y is necessarily bad and should be run down.

Most of the chi-fi IEMs are designed for general/consumer use. That some have found favor and been adopted for use in live music performance as entry-level, ultra-budget choices is just a happy coincidence. That various chi-fi IEMs are necessarily, hands-down superior to the SE215 for live music is simply an opinion, and I believe in broader terms than forums or youtube videos, it's a minority opinion, and further, where some objective measure apply, it's not arguably supported by facts.

Fit is a subjective matter, but it's very high in terms of relative importance pretty much across the board...it doesn't much matter how particular IEMs sound if they don't fit or are uncomfortable, and fit also can impact performance. The SE215 has a relatively small shell and small diameter nozzle. In being "universal," these aspects give them a better chance of providing a good and comfortable fit in more ears than the larger, large nozzle KZ ZS10. Does this mean that no one will find the KZ to be comfortable or even prefer its fit? No, it means that more people will find find the Shure to fit better and potentially work better on that basis. Personally, while I don't find the KZ ZS10 shape to be flatly uncomfortable, I find that relative to Westones that are similar in form factor to the Shures (both shell and nozzle size) they are bulky and constantly felt.

By design or by happenstance, the relative levels of isolation impact performance. Again, this can be a subjective matter with objective aspects. One source I found puts the measured outside sound reduction at -24.6 dB for the SE215 and -16.5 dB for the KZ ZS10 Pro. That's quite significant. And further, isolation varies with frequency, and in lower frequencies, the KZ's rejection of outside sound is virtually non-existent (only -2 dB). This means that the sound profile is going to fundamentally change based on the level and type of outside sound. Because live music limits the ability to closely A/B IEMs, listening to recorded music is a typical comparison method. These different levels of isolation have very different impacts on comparison made when listening to recorded music in a quiet room versus a stage with amps and drums in a room with a PA.

The unavoidable fact is that to approach the same relative levels in stage use, the KZ will have to be run at a higher level, which is opposite of the usual goal of minimizing IEM levels and in my opinion pretty much eliminates potential sound quality differences in listening to recorded music. As with fit, this does not mean that no one will adjust to, work with and feel well served by that level of isolation. Actually there is the perfect setup for this to happen. For me, it's easy to envision that many people become enamored with some of these IEMs because of recorded music listing comparisons, reviews (based on recorded music listing comparisons) and forum hype (also largely based on recorded music listing comparisons), that by the time they are using them to play live music, they are simply primed to hear them as being awesome and they end up not realizing that the lower level of isolation is actually forcing them to run at a higher volume.

Having owned tons of iems I cant recommend the shure se215 short of for people with small ears the fit and isolation might be good but the sound quality is exceedingly muddy and they lack in instrument separation and clarity. I can also say that my experience with about 20 different kz iems they do generally isolate abit less compared to the se215 depending on the model. The majority still isolate enough that I need to take them out to talk to anyone and it doesn't bleed enough to hear drums on stage. There are many different tuning profiles offered by most of the chifi companies some are designed for consumers like v shaped tunings that are more fun some tunings are more flat or nuetral and more ideal for sound engineers and others are for audiophiles and there are some models that work well for both live musicians and audiophiles alike. It really depends on wich of the models of iem you choose. Kz is only one chifi brand of many and they offer iem's geared for each of the tunings I described above. For the price I'd get them over the shure everytime. My personal recommended affordable/ budget chifi iem model would be the 5 ba Cca ca10 at about $50 american it is like a updated version of the kz As10 with better drivers and tuning with a semi custom mold shell that fits the ear better the cable is better then the older brown ugly kz models imho and features a silver braid that is less prone to tangling and has the qdc conections that have a shroud protecting the pins from moisture/corrosion and being bent or broken.

 

[Mickp]

A factor I'll mention is that some of this (mixer wise) depends on whether you expect to always supply your own PA and engineer or will you be reliant on the house? For one of my bands, we're always self-powered and the XR-18 on it's own does everything. Amazing piece of gear.
The second band tends to rely more on house sound...I guess this would be where the splitter comes in (that possibility is new to me!). Either case you can use your IEMs, but with house sound you most likely will rely on someone else to mix it for you, rather than using your iPhone etc. This may, or may not, work well

 

[Ethereal Thorn]

(Regarding the Behringer ms8000 splitters)
No experience, but many complaints about low-quality connectors and picking up EMI in reviews. Probably does the job, but doesn't exactly inspire confidence.[/QUOTE]
I own two of them and they are very good you do need to be abit cautious of the toggle switches on them as if bumped they can break off (easily avoided in a decent rack case) but otherwise they are rock solid and cost about half of what the art s8 splitters cost that said the Art s8 3way splitters make cable management abit easier as you can feed the inputs thru the back too. I hope this was helpful.

 

[_Some Dude]

Can anyone tell me about this unit and how it compares to the Behringer XAir?

StudioLive 16R | PreSonus

Local shop doesn’t carry Behringer and recommended this as an alternative. Band is onboard with the price difference.

 

[drpepper]

Can anyone tell me about this unit and how it compares to the Behringer XAir?

StudioLive 16R | PreSonus

Local shop doesn’t carry Behringer and recommended this as an alternative. Band is onboard with the price difference.

I don't own one, but I can tell you they are well regarded. One of the guys we use for hired sound has the 32R and loves it. The sound guy from this past Friday brought it up in conversation and said it's in his plans too, and he's on Behringer currently.

If I was in the market, it would certainly get strong consideration. I'd be interested to check out the control apps and how the multi-track recording works. It looks like it can record to an SD card right on the front panel. It's completely uncluttered and the single rack space is nice.

Damn! I want one now

 

[Ethereal Thorn]

I don't own one, but I can tell you they are well regarded. One of the guys we use for hired sound has the 32R and loves it. The sound guy from this past Friday brought it up in conversation and said it's in his plans too, and he's on Behringer currently.

If I was in the market, it would certainly get strong consideration. I'd be interested to check out the control apps and how the multi-track recording works. It looks like it can record to an SD card right on the front panel. It's completely uncluttered and the single rack space is nice.

Damn! I want one now

The main benefit of the behringer x32 over it is expandability via peripherals, usb interface, and more output channels and auxes for running iem stereo mixes

 

[drpepper]

The main benefit of the behringer x32 over it is expandability via peripherals, usb interface, and more output channels and auxes for running iem stereo mixes

I'm pretty sure he's considering the Behringer XR18 versus Presonus 16R to start into building an IEM rig and sometimes FOH mixer. I wouldn't think having an eye on expandability is a primary concern at this stage, but as far as I can see, the Studiolive line has (also more costly) peripherals and connectivity options corresponding to the Behringer line.

I don't personally own either one, so the depth of my comments is limited. I was prompted to comment because just this past Friday, I happened to have a conversation where someone was saying they were planning to move from the Behringer X32 to the Presonus 32R, and I was only commenting that between what I've seen and heard and been exposed to with people running sound for bands I'm in, I'd give consideration to the 16R versus the XR18. And the one rack space aspect would be extremely attractive to me if I were building an IEM rig.

That said, as a non-sound guy, I feel that the overall layout and control app are important aspects to consider (i.e., how well they tend to work for the layperson). I'm already on Mac, iPhone and iPad, so that's a non-issue for me, but may be important for some to take into consideration and try to demo as thoroughly as possible.

I also see the utility and benefit of multitrack recording for rehearsals and performances as huge, so if it were me, that'd be something I'd look at and compare as much as possible.

All that said, without having a dog in the fight, if it were me and the Presonus came out ahead in my estimation or they essentially came out as equal choices except for the price difference, another consideration would be that the Behringer has a significantly larger "user community" of similarly situated people/bands ("band owned", prosumer, non-sound tech users). Even if you assume that doesn't speak to their usability, it does mean that resources for information/user support would be more readily available.

Which makes me wonder, @_Some Dude, why is it important to you to buy from your local shop? I would imagine these are far more often than not online purchases.

 

[s0c9]

The main benefit of the behringer x32 over it is expandability via peripherals, usb interface, and more output channels and auxes for running iem stereo mixes

Indeed.. and 100% "why" (which I've posted about in the past) I went with the X32R vs SC Ui24R.
I now have 24 inputs and 16 output busses - after adding an SD8 to the rack. This also allows me to hook into an S16 or S32 at any church I need to..
I would have needed to buy a 2nd Ui24R for that level of expandability - even tho' I was 100% in favor of some of THEIR features (HTML5 - no app interface for 1) over the X32R.

 

[_Some Dude]

Which makes me wonder, @_Some Dude, why is it important to you to buy from your local shop? I would imagine these are far more often than not online purchases.

I’m not in the US, and I can get it cheaper locally than I can off Sweetwater.

 

[drpepper]

I’m not in the US, and I can get it cheaper locally than I can off Sweetwater.

Ah, okay. So, the Behringer XR18 mail order would have a premium over a US purchase, but still less than the Presonus? Sorry, just curious

 

[_Some Dude]

Ah, okay. So, the Behringer XR18 mail order would have a premium over a US purchase, but still less than the Presonus? Sorry, just curious

Pesonus will cost more than the Behringer, but it’s cheaper for me to buy local than online.

To go into more detail would probably be too political.

 

[_Some Dude]

Mixer arrived. Went with a Presonus Studiolive 16R.

Is there an industry standard way of laying out the channels? I thought it was kick on the left and vocals on the right, but my band’s current (now old) mixer is wired… rather uniquely… and I’m going to fix that when I wire this new one up.

I’d have to double check the drums, but I’m pretty sure we currently have mics on the kick, snare, 3x toms, 2 overhead, and hi-hat, plus bass (DI), 3x guitars (SM57), and 3x vocals.

 

[musicman7722]

Usually you start with the back line. Kick, Snare etc. then onto the bass, guitars and keys. Then you move forward to the frontline.

 

[Windreaper]

Mixer arrived. Went with a Presonus Studiolive 16R.

Is there an industry standard way of laying out the channels? I thought it was kick on the left and vocals on the right, but my band’s current (now old) mixer is wired… rather uniquely… and I’m going to fix that when I wire this new one up.

I’d have to double check the drums, but I’m pretty sure we currently have mics on the kick, snare, 3x toms, 2 overhead, and hi-hat, plus bass (DI), 3x guitars (SM57), and 3x vocals.

The closest thing to an industry standard would be the standard festival layout. In your case:

1. Kick
2. Snare
3. Hi-Hat
4-6. Toms
7-8. OH
9. Bass
10-12. Guitars from stage right (SR) to stage left (SL).
13-15. Vocals from SR to SL.

 

[drpepper]

Mixer arrived. Went with a Presonus Studiolive 16R.

Is there an industry standard way of laying out the channels? I thought it was kick on the left and vocals on the right, but my band’s current (now old) mixer is wired… rather uniquely… and I’m going to fix that when I wire this new one up.

I’d have to double check the drums, but I’m pretty sure we currently have mics on the kick, snare, 3x toms, 2 overhead, and hi-hat, plus bass (DI), 3x guitars (SM57), and 3x vocals.

If you look up above, I (post #13) and I think one other person commented on channel order.

And here's a link with some other info Why Your Mixer Channel Order Is Slowing You Down - Behind The Mixer

Again, using something along these lines is practical and helpful to foh in connecting and running your foh sound as it increases the possibility that it already matches their channel numbering scheme, but it doesn't necessarily involve your mixer's channel order as an IEM mixer. In that, you only need use this channel order for your splitter inputs (and map them over to the correct mixer inputs...e.g., the kick can be 1 on the splitter and 8 in your mixer). You can make your mixer channel order whatever you want such as vocals then guitars/bass then drums. That can be more efficient in terms of using the IEM control app; not having to skip over all of those drum channels (most unused in you IEM mixes) to get to the more frequently channel controls.

Two edits...

1. What I've said doesn't really apply if the IEM control app is configurable as to what you see/how you see it and I'm not familiar with the presonus app

2. Take note that stage perspective is being used...vocal mics and guitars are stage right to stage left so that they visually match the channel faders from foh across the stage from left to right...they don't need to think about which mic is whose; the leftmost slider goes with the leftmost mic and so on

 

[s0c9]

The closest thing to an industry standard would be the standard festival layout. In your case:

1. Kick
2. Snare
3. Hi-Hat
4-6. Toms
7-8. OH
9. Bass
10-12. Guitars from stage right (SR) to stage left (SL).
13-15. Vocals from SR to SL.

For basics, yeah.

It gets a little more complex with multiple electric and acoustic guitars, 2+ sets of keys.. maybe fiddle + pedal steel, in the mix.
The big thing is - most small footprint digital consoles layer channels in groups of 8. Mackie (IIRC) lets one expand that based on tablet size.
One wants to put all the drums on ONE layer + maybe bass (as none of the levels change much once set)
Then guitars all together, vocals all together then incidental instruments.

Whichever order you use, you should set it up so you do NOT need to keep swapping layers to adjust faders!
Workflow!

 

[_Some Dude]

Would like to thank everyone. Tonight was the first rehearsal with the new mixer (still waiting on the IEMs to arrive) and the sound was brilliant. Big improvement over what we had.

Workflow is pretty straight forward… just scroll left or right and I get access to all channel strips. The presets (gate/Comp/EQ/limiter) were enough to get me going until I get smart enough to figure how how to dial things in myself.

Band was pretty happy… lead singer was more than happy.

Lead singer (who plays guitar on maybe 4 songs) is going to switch to a DI with some sort of amp in a box. The rest of us are going to stick with live amps for the time being.

Can’t wait to add the IEMs and try that part out.

 

[Ethereal Thorn]

Would like to thank everyone. Tonight was the first rehearsal with the new mixer (still waiting on the IEMs to arrive) and the sound was brilliant. Big improvement over what we had.

Workflow is pretty straight forward… just scroll left or right and I get access to all channel strips. The presets (gate/Comp/EQ/limiter) were enough to get me going until I get smart enough to figure how how to dial things in myself.

Band was pretty happy… lead singer was more than happy.

Lead singer (who plays guitar on maybe 4 songs) is going to switch to a DI with some sort of amp in a box. The rest of us are going to stick with live amps for the time being.

Can’t wait to add the IEMs and try that part out.

Did you get some iems yet to demo with the new mixer?