Double Bass barre in thumb position?

[jj.833]

I'd like to ask how would you play this:

It's from Bach cello 1 prelude, Rabbath edition.

I tried:
- playing E with tip of 1 od D, jumping the string, playing A with tip of 1 on G (can't do that legato enough)
- trying to place a barre with 1 over E and A (can't do that naturally this high on the bass)
- trying to do a 'cradle' - playing E with tip of 1 and A with flesh of 1, rocking the finger in the string transition (hurts in my wrist this high on the bass)
- playing E with 1 and A with thumb (this works but feels awkward and is hard to intonate)
- playing E and A with thumb (most comfortable but quite hard to intonate)
- playing E with 1 and A with 2 (works but then I need to play following B and C with 4 sliding, which sounds out of context, too 'rubbery')

I'd probably find it out in the end, but perhaps there's a better trick?
Thanks a lot!

 

[16fuss]

I use the flaggiolets.
C 2
E 2 flagg A string
A 3 Flagg D string
B thumb G string
C 1
A 3 Flagg D string
E2 Flagg A string
C 2 A string.
How do you like it?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

- playing E with 1 and A with thumb (this works but feels awkward and is hard to intonate)

I just walked over to the bass and this is what felt most natural to my hand in this passage.

One problem with using the thumb in this way is that it is so agile that we often assume it doesn’t need the same amount of corresponding arm adjustment as the other fingers. And indeed it doesn’t need it as much, but it can still benefit from it, especially when it is being asked to tuck under the other fingers rather than stretch away from them, which it does more naturally.

In this way the use of the thumb on the bass functions much like a thumb-under cross on the piano: the thumb can manage it on its own, but it’s much better to involve the larger mechanism, especially taking into account moving the arm/hand into a position that prepares it for where it’s going rather than leaving it positioned for where it’s just been.

A few years back I was fortunate enough to observe a Hal Robinson masterclass for the classical students at my university. As part of his presentation, he discussed the use of “pull bars” (barring an ascending 4th across 2 strings) and “push bars” (the corresponding descending cross). Most people were able to manage pull bars reasonably well, but not push bars. I generally try to avoid both, but in a pinch will occasionally use a pull bar. I can’t think of a single situation where I settled on a push bar as a better option than a fingered solution.

 

[16fuss]

I use the flaggiolets.
C 2
E 2 flagg A string
A 3 Flagg D string
B thumb G string
C 1
A 3 Flagg D string
E2 Flagg A string
C 2 A string.
How do you like it?

Forgot the D! It is thumb on D string.

 

[jj.833]

“pull bars” (barring an ascending 4th across 2 strings) and “push bars” (the corresponding descending cross).

Do I get it right:
- pull bar would be E and then A, both played in index finger barre
- push bar would be A and then E, both played with the same barre?

 

[jj.833]

I use the flaggiolets.

Of course. Thank you sir!

Now I just wonder, what Rabbath had in mind?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Do I get it right:
- pull bar would be E and then A, both played in index finger barre
- push bar would be A and then E, both played with the same barre?

Exactly so. When he refers to "pull" it means toward the G side of the FB. "Push" means toward the E.

 

[kinnon64]

For 4ths in thumb position I go with 2-3. So in this instance 2 on E and 3 on the A. It isn't always a good solution, but it has its merits. Also useful for passages like Bruckner 7 (for me anyway)

 

[neilG]

You could also shift to thumb on the A. That makes more sense to me than trying to barre or use parallel fingers.

 

[Dogfightgiggle]

My limited understanding of Rabbath would have me anchoring my thumb throughout over the 2nd partial (octave G/D) and then using the first finger barre as indicated. I’d use a forked 2-1 for the descent.

 

[jj.833]

I use the flaggiolets.
C 2
E 2 flagg A string

Checked it out in the morning. When I play stopped C on III and then flaggiolet E on III, it works perfectly regarding intonation, but I'm having problems to make the flaggiolet sound distinct enough in the legato passage. It's ringing nicely, but the transient is too different from stopped tones. I guess it's a wacky bowing hand problem and I'll look into it in more depth.
Anyway, thanks for the tip. Now I can play C major in thumb position with only 4 stopped notes

 

[PaulCannon]

Now I just wonder, what Rabbath had in mind?

Sometimes he has the ability to just make something work, even when it doesn't make sense. If he ever actually used that fingering, it would have been brute force finger replacement.

I'm quite certain he no longer plays it that way. He most likely uses the A harmonic on the D with 3rd finger, with 1st and 2nd finger for the B and C above. Not a shift, but rather expanding the hand the reach the notes.

 

[jj.833]

Not a shift, but rather expanding the hand

Thank you @PaulCannon for your insight.
I also like the 'brute force finger replacement' phrase. This would be a good name for a band ;-)

 

[neilG]

The "trick" to an easier same-finger shift across the string is to have your thumb already pressing on the string behind the finger. That way, the string is either already touching the board or most of the way there, making the transition easier.