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Why are older basses "coveted"???

#81
Gaolee said:
I'm a Boomer or Gen X, depending on when you look. I wasn't a Boomer but got reclassified. So there's that. I play with quite a few Gen X guys and a bunch of Millennials as well. The Gen X guys, especially guitarists, spend a zillion dollars getting just the right sound. It could be vintage, it could be custom shop, it could be relic. Whatever it is, they spend lots of money. The Millennials are a lot more constrained, probably because they don't have the money just yet. The Boomers I play with generally have vintage instruments, not because they bought vintage instruments, but because they have had whatever they play for a very long time. A guitarist with a '62 Strat plays it because he's had it since about 1970, when he was in middle school. It isn't a vintage guitar, it's just his guitar. As a mostly bass player, I don't know what generations of bass players do.
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As a younger millennial, I have 4 basses and 1 guitar. All of my instruments are of high quality and exactly what I'm looking for. One was a birthday gift from my parents when I was in college. The others I had to work for or shrewdly trade up to acquire.

I don't need anything more than what I have. I don't have the disposable income to buy a multi-thousand dollar (or older vintage) guitar whenever. I'd rather max out my Roth IRA every year now so that I can actually retire in 35-40 years. Compound interest works in the stock market, not usually with investing in basses.
 
#82
Objective value? With an old bass ...
  • The hardware has not improved with age
  • The pots, wiring and cap haven't improved with age. Cap may be worse.
  • The pickup wiring hasn't improved with age.
  • The pickup magnets may have weakened or were weaker to start with. That could be a sonic improvement I suppose.
  • The finish on the neck can wear away - making a smooth feeling bare-wood neck.
  • The finish on the body can wear away but how that improves anything other than looks is beyond me.
The only thing that really can improve with age is the wood itself. People talk about how wood "quality" was better back then but typically have no data to back that up. I believe that wood was not better back then and, I also have no data to back it up. So there :p

At the end of it all, I'm really, really glad I'm one who has zero interest in a vintage bass. Saves me a lot of money and nobody I play with has EVER hinted they'd prefer I played the part on a 60's vintage bass.
 
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#83
The rarity factor plus the nostalgia factor.
The "pre-CBS" thing started when Fender was bought out by a CBS (a mega-company) and quality was perceived to have dropped. That perception wasn't entirely wrong. Sort of like "pre-AMF" Harleys were for a while.

So post-CBS Fenders were looked down on, and 70's Fenders were positively despised.

It's completely odd to folks like me (who lived through all that history) that now '70's Fenders are commanding remarkably (dare I say ridiculously) high prices. They're old... and I think their prices started to go up when a segment of the (slightly younger) bass playing population saw that they couldn't afford a '60's Fender and decided that '70's were almost as old and so must be 'almost as good'.

All IMHO etc.
 
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#84
kesslari said:
The rarity factor plus the nostalgia factor.
The "pre-CBS" thing started when Fender was bought out by a CBS (a mega-company) and quality was perceived to have dropped. That perception wasn't entirely wrong. Sort of like "pre-AMF" Harleys were for a while.

So post-CBS Fenders were looked down on, and 70's Fenders were positively despised.

It's completely odd to folks like me (who lived through all that history) that now '70's Fenders are commanding remarkably (dare I say ridiculously) high prices. They're old... and I think their prices started to go up when a segment of the (slightly younger) bass playing population saw that they couldn't afford a '60's Fender and decided that '70's were almost as old and so must be 'almost as good'.

All IMHO etc.
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Similar stuff is happening with cars. Who wants a 76 Dodge Dart? Your dad drove a 76 Dart. Your grandma drove a Valiant.
Kids are going crazy for them now.
 
#85
MrAB4003 said:
As a younger millennial, I have 4 basses and 1 guitar. All of my instruments are of high quality and exactly what I'm looking for. One was a birthday gift from my parents when I was in college. The others I had to work for or shrewdly trade up to acquire.

I don't need anything more than what I have. I don't have the disposable income to buy a multi-thousand dollar (or older vintage) guitar whenever. I'd rather max out my Roth IRA every year now so that I can actually retire in 35-40 years. Compound interest works in the stock market, not usually with investing in basses.
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You have no idea (or maybe you do) how happy you will be you started that IRA when retirement does come.
 
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#89
Between 1957-1965+ Fender made some exceptional basses, I know because I’m lucky enough to own one. At the time I purchased mine it was just used 1959 Fender Precision that had been well cared for. Since they were built by hand there is a great deal of room for brilliance and also error. I would expect a new master built FCS bass to be on par or better than mine at a much lower cost. Just my take.
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#90
My input,

I enjoy the history behind these pieces. There are no illusions of the instrument being better…

It’s the same reason people pay 10k for a custom bass, you want something specific and plan to enjoy it.

I will say, I could hold a 10k stock for 20 years or play my 10k bass for 20 years, I may get a better return on investment with the stock if the dollar holds up and the economy doesn’t tank. My 10k bass will increase in value over time, way below the S&P but I get to play it every single day enjoy it and cash out later… if I don’t pass it along one day.

I think if you stumble upon the right instrument for the right price, it’ll work out nicely in the end.

We also don’t know how long we will live, so it’s nice to enjoy nice stuff.
 
#91
Ric Vice said:
Between 1957-1965+ Fender made some exceptional basses, I know because I’m lucky enough to own one. At the time I purchased mine it was just used 1959 Fender Precision that had been well cared for. Since they were built by hand there is a great deal of room for brilliance and also error. I would expect a new master built FCS bass to be on par or better than mine at a much lower cost. Just my take.
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They made nice basses before 1957 too…
 
#93
Some people like old cars.

Some people collect dolls... "why does anyone do the things they do"? The X-Files Clyde Buckman's Final Repose" S3E4

I like vintage Fenders;
That's just how I came up. My mentor - who took me under his wing when I was 16 -
was a vintage Fender buff, and it rubbed off.

2saddleslab said:
Age has little to do with it.
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I think something that is often overlooked is that in the 50s and 60s "old growth" lumber was still plentiful.
Nobody called it "old growth" - it was just lumber back then! Still pretty common and plentiful. Air dried - naturally seasoned.
And YES - IMO - It made a difference.

Just like custom builds with carefully selected wood - your chance of getting a great bass improve.
Buy the 70s, old growth lumber stock-piles were becoming depleted. Any correlation there??


MrAB4003 said:
I'd rather max out my Roth IRA every year now so that I can actually retire in 35-40 years. Compound interest works in the stock market, not usually with investing in basses.
Click to expand...
Yes! - You've got it figured out. (other than compound interest is compound interest - whether it's the market or a bank)
SO - (if you haven't already) LEARN the Rule of 72.
AI can instantly tell you the combined average of the S&P & Dow over the past 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years etc;
Time IN the Market - Just take what the market gives you, and you can buy any bass you want in 30 years.

--------------------------------------
I bought my '67 Jazz for $415 in 1983 - my 2nd bass which became my #1.
While I got years of enjoyment - and gig $ - out of it; that scenario is very unlikely to be duplicated today / going forward.

And that basses value today pales in comparison to that same amount invested in the market over that same time.
Basses generally DO NOT make good investments.
(my 30 year old Roscoe Beck V - the Best passive 5 Fender ever made! is worth double what I paid for it. That's barely 2.4% a year!)


If you think about it; "rich boomers with more $ than sense".... is sort of an oxymoron - especially if they created their own wealth... ;)
 
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#94
darwin-bass said:
People talk about how wood "quality" was better back then but typically have no data to back that up. I believe that wood was not better back then and, I also have no data to back it up. So there :p
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There was old growth wood available back then, not so much today. Is old growth more stable if it's properly seasoned? Maybe, I don't know. I'm not a woodologist. Does old growth wood sound better? I doubt it, but I'm open to being convinced.
 
#96
vindibona1 said:
To be honest, I've never held a 60's or 70's Fender bass in my hands, let alone play one. Compared to new, "comparable" basses, they seem to go for a lot of money, of course, depending on certain factors. I confess that I'm probably not a good enough player to appreciate the nuances of the coveted older basses, find that the ones I own, made in this century do everything I need. The original Fenders do look cool, especially the ones that have that "bullet" truss rod nut on the headstock.

So, tell me... other than an instrument owned by a famous person as a collector's item, what is the deal with vintage instruments? All sizzle and no steak, prices fueled by some sort of demand?
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At least with Fender and Gibson, quality control slipped considerably in the 70’s, which woke players up to the relatively better build of 60’s(and 50’s)models(before that they were merely old guitars/basses). That in turn created the “vintage” market towards the end of the decade, as well as the turnaround in Japanese production quality, where they moved on from cheapo output with wacky designs to almost dead-on imitations of classic American(for the most part)models that were starting to be considered as collectable, all the while still being budget minded. That’s were the “lawsuit” myths got started.
Quite frankly, I always had to laugh when somebody got excited by any 70’s product, but I guess because by the time most of the 60’s instruments got grabbed up or got astronomically priced, the slightly later stuff was old itself and the next best thing. But those were what created the reaction in the first place. I’d say that, by ‘73, it was really starting to sink/stink.
 
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#97
J-Bass RMR said:
Some people like old cars.

Some people collect dolls... "why does anyone do the things they do"? The X-Files Clyde Buckman's Final Repose" S3E4

I like vintage Fenders;
That's just how I came up. My mentor - who took me under his wing when I was 16 -
was a vintage Fender buff, and it rubbed off.


I think something that is often overlooked is that in the 50s and 60s "old growth" lumber was still plentiful.
Nobody called it "old growth" - it was just lumber back then! Still pretty common and plentiful. Air dried - naturally seasoned.
And YES - IMO - It made a difference.

Just like custom builds with carefully selected wood - your chance of getting a great bass improve.
Buy the 70s, old growth lumber stock-piles were becoming depleted. Any correlation there??



Yes! - You've got it figured out. (other than compound interest is compound interest - whether it's the market or a bank)
SO - (if you haven't already) LEARN the Rule of 72.
AI can instantly tell you the combined average of the S&P & Dow over the past 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years etc;
Time IN the Market - Just take what the market gives you, and you can buy any bass you want in 30 years.

--------------------------------------
I bought my '67 Jazz for $415 in 1983 - my 2nd bass which became my #1.
While I got years of enjoyment - and gig $ - out of it; that scenario is very unlikely to be duplicated today / going forward.

And that basses value today pales in comparison to that same amount invested in the market over that same time.
Basses generally DO NOT make good investments.
(my 30 year old Roscoe Beck V - the Best passive 5 Fender ever made! is worth double what I paid for it. That's barely 2.4% a year!)


If you think about it; "rich boomers with more $ than sense".... is sort of an oxymoron - especially if they created their own wealth... ;)
Click to expand...
I own a tutoring business in which I exclusively tutor math! So I'm all too familiar with compound interest, the almighty compound interest equation, and the Rule of 72. :D

I always tell my students that compound interest is the single most important thing that I can teach them. If they understand it and use it to their advantage, they could become wealthy in the future.

TIME IN the market is better than TIMING the market.
 
#99
vindibona1 said:
To be honest, I've never held a 60's or 70's Fender bass in my hands, let alone play one. Compared to new, "comparable" basses, they seem to go for a lot of money, of course, depending on certain factors. I confess that I'm probably not a good enough player to appreciate the nuances of the coveted older basses, find that the ones I own, made in this century do everything I need. The original Fenders do look cool, especially the ones that have that "bullet" truss rod nut on the headstock.

So, tell me... other than an instrument owned by a famous person as a collector's item, what is the deal with vintage instruments? All sizzle and no steak, prices fueled by some sort of demand?
Click to expand...
Well...
If you're going to confine the question to old Fender basses, then... I guess my answer is;
- They've been around since 1951 - which is a long time;
- There are on Hell of a lot of them to choose from;
- There have been a lot of factory modifications and models; and
- People just seem to want to collect something - and Fender basses are... just sitting there.
Personally? I have one that's sorta "collectible"; a left handed '78 P-Bass, with the sorta rare "A-spec" neck. I bought it from a friend in 1988. I probably paid more than it was worth, at the time; but, not a lot more. It was just a used - but not abused - 10 year old Fender P-Bass. I still have it, and still play it; but, at 75 my worn out body doesn't want to play an 11+lb. bass for very long...
This subject comes up every so often, and the last time I commented on it, I compared collecting old Fenders to collecting Ford Mustangs. I was almost old enough to drive, when the first 1964-1/2 Mustangs came out. A friend's older sister got one for a graduation present. I'd been around a lot of different cars - American and European ones - and... honestly? Her shiny new Mustang wasn't really much of a car. Just a re-bodied Ford Falcon, actually; and Falcons weren't much of a car, either. Over the years, I've driven several Mustangs, of various performance levels. Had the chance to buy several of them, too. I've never owned a Mustang; I wouldn't pay the price of a "collectible" one - well, not voluntarily, anyway. Being old and expensive doesn't alter the fact that it's still not much of a car. And, Fender basses are like Mustangs, AFAIC. Buy either one, if you feel you'll simply die if you don't have one. I'll just keep the one Fender bass I have... Is mine a "nice" one? Yes, it is. Doesn't have dead spots on the neck, either (long story about that). It's simply my first bass, although I'd been playing off and on since 1967 (another long story). Plus, it fills the "Fender P-Bass" spot in my herd. And, honestly? I've never picked up a P-Bass that I'd replace mine with - although Fender has made a new lefty or two that was... pretty tempting. But, buy a "collectible" one? Uhh... no.
As for other, non-Fender "collectible" basses? Yeah, I do have a few. But, if your "Bass Herd" has a spot labeled "Rick 4001"? Well, Rick isn't making new ones, so... :whistle: Same with long scale Danelectro basses. The only lefties they made were Gen. 1 Korean ones, from 1998-99. They've never made them since, so... "older bass" - or nothing....
Same goes for my '93 Gretsch Broadkaster (ever seen a lefty Gretsch bass? This is the only one I've ever seen - and they sure ain't making new ones), and my aluminum-necked Kramer 450B. Yeah, I could have an aluminum-necked bass made - now; but, I've had the Kramer going on 20 years... I don't buy "collectible" basses simply because they're collectible. I've bought all of mine because I either had no choice, if I wanted to fill a spot in my herd; or, I've had the bass so long it's sort of... morphed... into a collectible...
But, I'm not in the habit of telling people how to spend their money. If an old Fender bass will give you the warm fuzzies? Buy the thing, by all means... :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
 
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#100
I remember seeing a video of Fender’s original shop. Showed a sweaty guy with no shirt that was operating a band saw, looked like he was shaping a Telecaster. Had a cigarette hanging off of his lip, he didn’t look the least bit concerned about dimensions or tolerances. Just cut it and threw it in a pile.
As far as guitars and muscle cars, even 80’s “performance” cars. I blame my Generation (50+). People my age started making money and ended up throwing it away on nostalgia. I can’t justify buying any of the cars I had during the 90’s (Foxbody 5 liter Mustangs, even V8 GM G-body cars). Unless I strike oil on my small plot here in St. Paul, MN. I doubt I’ll ever spend 20-30k on an impractical car or guitar.
 

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