Wireless is a system where you replace one long audio cable with a two short audio cables, a transmitter, a receiver, a power supply (or two), and/or batteries (that you're either going to have to constantly replace or recharge).
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Bass amp DI to PA using wireless
- Thread starter sysgfh
- Start date
Not reading the rest of the thread except for @agedhorse first comment, aren't bass frequencies inherently slower and you want to introduce yet another delay using wireless. There are ethernet snakes now, so you do not have to lug those massive snake boxes. Also many touring acts will only push the wireless on the stage receivers and then it is wired to the FOH.
I won't do it myself.
I won't do it myself.
Other than potential drop outs/interference, this is very doable. Heck, you can go wireless from bass to pedalboard (if you use effects), wireless from pedalboard to amp, and then wireless from amp to PA if you want. If your stage plot has all these items within 25' line of sight and you use UHF systems with enough channels, you probably won't have dropouts or interference from 2.4G or 5G devices. Add a rechargeable powerbank for your pedalboard (again, if you use effects) and you've got no cables on the floor near you. I do this in our rehearsal space.
Although, for a show, I run cables for everything but bass to pedalboard. There I use a wireless and have an instrument cable available in case there are wireless issues. I can't always control the environment where we are to ensure reliable wireless between each interface and try to keep it to a minimum.
A decent wireless is not a bad idea. It is not "less stuff to bring" than using a cord, in my experience. And in the event, somehow the wireless might do down mid-gig, I still carry the cable... that the wireless replaced to go between my bass and pedalboard. And I keep that cable right by my mic stand if I ever needed it in quick order in the middle of a song or set. So I carry slightly MORE by using wireless. I know it's of questionable value to gig with a "spare" in-waiting for literally EVERY piece of gear that makes it onstage where you're literally bringing exactly twice what you need to gig, aside from the amp, but... at a certain point, you can only pare back so much before you just can't before making decisions with big consequences:
Can I play without an amp?
Would I be ok not having a backup bass?
If I bring the 15 foot cord instead of 30 foot, will I be close enough to the mixer to plug in?
Etc...
Even a cable bag/box that carries everything but the bass amp and bass, can have wheels or placed on a small handtruck, and that simple change alone could be a game-changer for you if don't already do that. I use a small handtruck for my amp. Then a cable bag is stacked on top of that. Then I place my gig fan on top of the cable bag. And in I go to and from the club with minimal effort.
The speed of sound does not vary by frequency. The wavelength gets longer as the frequency goes down, which means the time/duration for a complete cycle is longer at low frequencies. 40hz is 40 cycles per second. So the duration of one cycle is 1/40 seconds (25mS). 1000hz is 1000cycles per second, so the duration of one cycle is 1/1000 seconds (1mS).
Digital processing takes time so the output is delayed from the input a bit. One term for this processing delay is latency. AFAIK the threshold for human perception is around 15mS of delay or slightly less. The latency for the Shure SLX-D series wireless is 3.2mS--way under the threshold.
Sounds travels at about 1.13' feet per mS. Audio techs tend to round this down to 1'/mS. The latency of the SLX-D is similar to the propagation delay experienced by placing a speaker 3' from you ears.
The reliability of a wireless is far more dependent on the knowledge/experience of the user than it is on the hardware involved. I've coordinated a church campus with 170 channels of wireless and in ear things deployed; the Super Bowl, when you add up all the walkie talkies and such, is around 1000 channels of wireless happening all at once. Those situations can be quite reliable - if managed correctly. On the other hand, a single user that doesn't pay attention to his or her battery life is....unreliable. Wireless demands you pay attention to certain things - some of the more sophisticated ones will keep you out of trouble spectrum wise (they can switch channels and get you out of trouble before it is an audible problem). But there is always a need for someone to watch the battery life - performer or tech doesn't matter, someone needs to be taking care of that.
+1
A guy I used to work with (non-music related job) would often use the phrase "the sh*t to gain ratio" when evaluating an option. In other words, is the hassle (and/or cost) worth the benefit gained. Sometimes, the answer is no.
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Yeah of course, sound speed is the same, but if you asked any orchestral bass players , they do play slightly ahead - - I also learned this in my Latin band days. The band leader always told me to play a little ahead of the percussion. I He said that out in the audience it will sound more in sync.. Definitely do this in big bands too. Low frequencies are perceived as delayed That's really what I meant
With everybody using an HX Stomp or whatever else these days, that's another thing to consider, digital mixers ??? -- the less latency the better. If this is a small band that the PA mixer is on stage -- maybe not an issue. But if they are playing large stages, I definitely won't have the wireless on the FOH side. It will be on stage and wired to FOH
IME...sometimes it's necessary to play ahead and sometimes it's necessary to play behind.
One potential factor is basses are often in the back of the stage, which results in propagation delay. If basses are near the front they tend to be aimed across the ensemble rather than forwards towards the audience. AFAIK the perception of speed is encoded in high frequencies, which is one of the reasons I prefer a bright sound. If I dial in a dark tone, it feels like the sound coming from the amp is significantly delayed. I suspect this is related to why orchestral basses may need to push the beat. If they are up front but aimed across the orchestra, the balance of their direct tone heading towards the audience is the omnidirectional low frequencies. The highs are more directional and aimed across the orchestra. Most of the highs that make their way to the audience take an indirect and longer path..
IME, strings tend to play way in front of wind players. When I first started playing upright in military concert bands, it took awhile for me learn to "breath" with the wind ensemble, rather than playing in front of them.
A tuba is a pretty long instrument and it takes time for the sound to travel the lenght of the horn. AFAIK tubist need to play ahead to sound in time.
Yes latency is cumulative. Run the signal through multiple digital devices one after the other, and eventually you get enough latency to cause a problem.
Even small amounts of latency can be a problem if you blending a digital processed signal back with a unprocessed signals.
- Feb 12, 2006
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No, bass frequencies travel at pretty much the same speed… close to the speed of light in a wire or wireless.
As I mentioned....I had to go ampless for my Casino gigs and I used a wireless, either directly to or patched into a DI and then to the PA. Zero delays or issues. No loss of eq.
I’ve gone the other direction for my in-ears. I use an XLR cable from an aux out on the mixer to my hip where I have a battery powered headphone / earbud amp. No more forgetting to recharge the wireless components or hearing various spurts of interference. I don’t do acrobatics on stage so the cable isn’t a hindrance. I don’t notice it until I head to break.
That being said, my son uses a wireless transmitter in the XLR out of his acoustic amp to a powered PA speaker outdoors on the patio of the brewery where he calls bingo. Those who sit outside can play also, but they have to wave arms or get up on the table when they have a bingo. Extending the signal going in to his indoor amp to an outdoor powered speaker works great.
That being said, my son uses a wireless transmitter in the XLR out of his acoustic amp to a powered PA speaker outdoors on the patio of the brewery where he calls bingo. Those who sit outside can play also, but they have to wave arms or get up on the table when they have a bingo. Extending the signal going in to his indoor amp to an outdoor powered speaker works great.
I'm really trying to see what the issue is here that needs a solution.
I"ve been running my bass with a Lectrosonics receiver, then 2 different Sennheiser receivers via 1/4" cable to a tube DI of some sort for 15 years. I've had no failures that I see going on and on about. You passive and wire or "point of failure" guys don't let this blow up your heads, but I manage my battery life too easily. So what?
I"ve been running my bass with a Lectrosonics receiver, then 2 different Sennheiser receivers via 1/4" cable to a tube DI of some sort for 15 years. I've had no failures that I see going on and on about. You passive and wire or "point of failure" guys don't let this blow up your heads, but I manage my battery life too easily. So what?
Does the mixer have any instrument inputs? If so you can achieve what to achieve by using one of the bug systems and plugging the transmitter into your bass and the receiver into the mixer. Anything else is going to need at least one cable.
Or if you can find a tiny DI box (I like the Cordial one) then you could maybe buy an xlr wireless as you suggest and secrete the DI and transmitter on your person.
Or if you can find a tiny DI box (I like the Cordial one) then you could maybe buy an xlr wireless as you suggest and secrete the DI and transmitter on your person.
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All things considered and observing the issue appropriately, as has already been said here, the fact of using a wireless system to supposedly reduce the load and cables handled in each job will not provide exactly what is intended.
It is possible to use wireless (for example, those from Sennheiser, which are very stable), but nothing goes beyond a simple good quality cable.
Macedo Pinto
Portugal
I've run wireless to FOH, but only as a backup. The receiver is in my rack, and the spare transmitter is in my backpack (which comes with me to every gig).
My usual rig is a wireless tuner, to a Keeley compressor, to my JDI, then XLR to FOH (and sometimes parallel out of my JDI to my amp). The wireless to FOH is only there if something on my pedalboard eats crap mid-gig.
Edit: OP, you could do it, but I would always carry a DI in my bag, on the off chance that the wireless was having issues (tends to vary based on interference from venue to venue).
My usual rig is a wireless tuner, to a Keeley compressor, to my JDI, then XLR to FOH (and sometimes parallel out of my JDI to my amp). The wireless to FOH is only there if something on my pedalboard eats crap mid-gig.
Edit: OP, you could do it, but I would always carry a DI in my bag, on the off chance that the wireless was having issues (tends to vary based on interference from venue to venue).
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