Bass drum eq - lower or higher than bass

[mouthmw]

I've had a bit of an argument (well, not really, just a debate more like it) with my band 2 gigs ago. We play a Led Zeppelin tribute sometimes mixed with some other vintage rock (Cream, Hendrix, ZZ Top etc). The drummer sports a nice 70s Ludwig drum set, we kind of try to get that old school sound going. I go through 80s Fender solid state 300W and GK NEO 412 (yea, not the most vintage cab, but it really puts out the tone according to the amp IMO) with a P bass with flats. I cut the highs, and some mids (still get really strong mids out of this setup), boosting some lows and low mids depending on the venue. I go for that nice warm old school tone, but I still get some massive grunt when I dig in.

The discussion went about eq-ing the kick drum with the bass. They (mostly the guitarist) claim that it needs to be higher than the bass, saying that back in the day, they didn't have those massive subs and sub bass like today's equipment. Now I agree with that, but I don't think that that's really true (I could be wrong ofc) for the rock music that still had quite some mids, especially with a P bass. They kind of set the bass drum in the low mid area (100ish HZ I think, even trying to cut anything below 160Hz at one point if I'm not mistaken). It clashed with my low mids somewhat.

In a nutshell, did they (let's take Led Zeppelin in this example) really eq the bass to be lower than the bass drum? Wouldn't that just leave my fundamentals and wouldn't that be more for dub and reggae? I'm trying to understand my band's point of view here

 

[RoadRanger]

Try NOT cutting the lows from the kick but cut it back at 350 HZ (6 dB?) to leave some space for the bass harmonics. Some kick mics are already scooped there. And on the bass, keep in mind that a nice solo tone will get buried in the mix - don't cut the upper mids, you need them for note definition.

Or you could try getting a pro in to do it for you (at least once).

 

[mouthmw]

Try NOT cutting the lows from the kick but cut it back at 350 HZ (6 dB?) to leave some space for the bass harmonics. Some kick mics are already scooped there. And on the bass, keep in mind that a nice solo tone will get buried in the mix - don't cut the upper mids, you need them for note definition.

Or you could try getting a pro in to do it for you (at least once).

I don't have a problem cutting through, with this rig I have plenty mids trust me. I do set them according to room etc. Hiring a pro eh? Our budget does not allow that, for sure, besides there's no guarantee that this pro will know how to set our tone. We always do the best job ourselves. It's just this bass drum thing that I'm really wondering about. It sounds great live, no doubt, but I'm into the details of why and how. Did bands like Led Zep have their kick drum higher or lower than bass? Is it truly the vintage rock way?

 

[RoadRanger]

Vinyl has issues with bass frequencies so recordings tend to be bass shy from that era vs how the band sounded live. And then there's the issue of lack of true subs back then. You have to kindof guess how the band would have liked to sound without those limitations. OTOH many soundfolk overboost the subs which sucks too. Maybe youse guys should be tuning the kick for a good sound and amplifying that rather than trying to EQ it into something else? Kicks tend to be tuned lower these days, the fundamental for classic should probably be 90Hz+ but it's really a matter of taste...

 

[mouthmw]

Vinyl has issues with bass frequencies so recordings tend to be bass shy from that era vs how the band sounded live. And then there's the issue of lack of true subs back then. You have to kindof guess how the band would have liked to sound without those limitations. OTOH many soundfolk overboost the subs which sucks too. Maybe youse guys should be tuning the kick for a good sound and amplifying that rather than trying to EQ it into something else? Kicks tend to be tuned lower these days, the fundamental for classic should probably be 90Hz+ but it's really a matter of taste...

Yeah but we're talking about 70s 24'' Ludwig here, our drum set is not a modern set, and we definitely don't go for that huge sub tone, and every time the damn sound guy starts to set it that way, we interfere. "No dude, we don't want the huge sub on the kick ffs -.-" We are trying to set the kick for a good sound, not eq it into something else, what gives you that idea?? In fact the kick sounded awesome last gig we played. We used our own PA and did our own eq-ing.

 

[EastCoastThump]

Did bands like Led Zep have their kick drum higher or lower than bass? Is it truly the vintage rock way?

In classic rock of that era, the kick drum and bass guitar both have audible components over a wide range of frequencies. It's not like kick lives at 60 Hz and bass lives at 80 Hz, although we sometimes talk about them having room to speak in those ranges.

Both have a low pillow and at least some midrange detail. Except for very early rock, the kick almost always has some amount of beater click evident in the mix; and by the late 60s and beyond electric bass generally had some audible high end detail—sometimes mixed fairly low for presence or air, but in some bands and genres, mixed prominently enough so that fret noise, fingerboard slap, and the like poke through the mix.

 

[EastCoastThump]

In fact the kick sounded awesome last gig we played. We used our own PA and did our own eq-ing.

Cool; keep doing it that way, and direct the SE when you're not self-mixing.

 

[mouthmw]

In classic rock of that era, the kick drum and bass guitar both have audible components over a wide range of frequencies. It's not like kick lives at 60 Hz and bass lives at 80 Hz, although we sometimes talk about them having room to speak in those ranges.

Both have a low pillow and at least some midrange detail. Except for very early rock, the kick almost always has some amount of beater click evident in the mix; and by the late 60s and beyond electric bass generally had some audible high end detail—sometimes mixed fairly low for presence or air, but in some bands and genres, mixed prominently enough so that fret noise, fingerboard slap, and the like poke through the mix.

This is all very similar to what my guitarist told me, and my drummer. Let me try to get this - say my fundamental goes lower than the kick bass, and sort of envelopes it?

 

[EastCoastThump]

This is all very similar to what my guitarist told me, and my drummer. Let me try to get this - say my fundamental goes lower than the kick bass, and sort of envelopes it?

Two suggestions:
1. Even though your fundamentals on bass guitar can be down in the first octave (roughly 40-80 Hz), the meat of the sound (what sounds like the low bass) is typically coming from overtones in roughly the 80-240 Hz range. IOW, if your bass (or kick) sounds too thin, don't straight-away reach for EQ corresponding to the fundamental frequencies.

2. It wouldn't be typical to eq the bass so that it is the prominent voice across all of the low frequency range, but that doesn't mean you can't do it. In practice, either bass *or* kick could just mask the other instruments entirely across the range of low frequencies (especially if the masked instrument is made prominent in one or more higher frequency ranges). Usually, though, kick would have part of that 60-120 Hz range where it pokes through most, and bass would have another bit of real estate in that range where *it* is most apparent. Alternatively, you could give bass a very wide low-frequency pillow, but use a parametric to drop a range of frequencies in the middle of that pillow. (That's where the kick can peek out.)

 

[HeavyJazz]

Hope this helps.

 

[seamonkey]

Subs go way back. The old amps didn't have as much "reserve" and when the bass drum hit, then the rest of the sound, i.e. bass would sag. Th live recordings were from the board and not the PA, so you can't know what it actually sounded like for the audience from the live recordings.

You can use a sideband compressor to emulate that old sag after bass drum hits. It's used quite a bit in a lot of music.