Bass Guitar / Rhythm Guitar / Drums relationship

[byacey]

Please elucidate. I see no difference.

In modern rock (70's onward), I often hear the rhythm guitar playing on all the beats in the measure.

 

[Mushroo]

No, these wren't originals, mainly contemporaries from the 30's through 60's. He had charts for many of the tunes, but didn't bother using them. Most of these tunes are pretty simple and straightforward.

If I understand correctly: You wrote out charts for the guitarist, indicating he should play chords on beats 2&4, and rest on beats 1&3. He completely ignored the charts and played the wrong rhythm.

If that is accurate then you would be crazy to work with this person again. Ignoring the written rhythm and improvising some random, different rhythm is unacceptable, in my opinion.

 

[Bushrod Johnson]

In my experience you never really "hear" a great rhythm guitarist.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

I played a New Years gig last night, and wasn't very happy about the choice of rhythm guitarist. The guitarist was chopping out rhythm over top of the bass all night, blocking me in so I couldn't move anywhere away from the root or fifth. If there was a nice descending bass line of root, Maj7, min7, 6, etc., I was met with dissonance because the guitarist was still pounding out the root over top of the bass.

This sort of mentality drives me nuts. I'm from the old school where in 4/4, if the bass is playing 2 to the bar, he plays on beat 1 and 3, and rhythm guitar takes 2 and 4 for his chords on the back beat.

Towards the end of the night we were playing a 3/4 song and I had enough already, so for a few bars I switched to playing the bass on 2 and 3 to see if he would get the message, - and the guitarist didn't even notice. I wonder what the hell he was listening to?

I'm accustomed to being free to go where I want with the bass, creating lines, and setting up the harmonies for the group through leading notes.

Am I being too critical?

Isnt the rythym guitarist only there so that the lead doesnt have to stop the rythym when doing a solo? What I mean is, it's not actually a "rythym" guitar, it's more of a "constant" guitar? That's how I've always viewed it at least.

 

[OldStrummer]

In my experience you never really "hear" a great rhythm guitarist.

IMO, Pete Townshend is rock's greatest rhythm guitar player. He rarely plays lead.

 

[JRA]

Am I being too critical?

sounds like your criticism may be spot on, but maybe your 'solution' may have been lacking. given that there might be a 'bulldozer' effect that bass players can utilize for 'wayward' musicians in the band: if you emphasize the note choices while providing that rhythm = they are "wrong" when your playing guides them (and everyone else!) and they fail to take the guidance. their 'wrongness" is heard/seen/noticed by everyone playing and maybe by most who are listening. but if you are timid and hold back, they may never 'learn' what it is they should be listening to/for. with that 'bulldozer' style: you'll often hear other musicians apologize for sloppy/errant playing. (drummers can benefit from this, too!)

IME: competent rhythm players are usually not the problem --- it's the lead players! so i'm guessing your guy was just a hack who was more concerned about how he looked while playing than the playing itself. probably limited in abilities, generally.

sometimes you have to 'bulldoze'. it's not for the faint of heart because when you're doing it = you are the leader! good luck!

 

[Uche_bass]

Fire him (and the drummer, for good measure), buy an octaver and become the bass AND rythm guitar

 

[Two-Spirit]

I usually play everything like its written. And when I improvise less is more. I think knowing how the song goes frees me up. John Paul Jones used to play a lot of fancy arpeggios over Zeppelins blues covers but he used a really dark sound for that. It would be too much if he had a brighter sound.

 

[lfmn16]

I wonder what the hell he was listening to?

Himself and it was spectacular!

It's one of the reasons I prefer trios. It's really hard to find other instrumentalists that actually listen to when everyone is playing. I've only played in a few situations where two guitarists really played well together. Most of the time it's like watching two fat people try to squeeze through a door a the same time.

 

[lat]

Try playing in a band with 3 guitars... mush anyone?

 

[MVE]

In my experience you never really "hear" a great rhythm guitarist.

Try telling them that. Lol

(I know you clarified that with "...great rhythm guitarist.")

I think the issue is that many guitarists learn and practice the songs by themselves and strum up, down, back and forth like a folk singer at a pep rally without thinking to adjust their technique to an ensemble arrangement, or sometimes even for an electric guitar.
A good sound guy can adjust for this with attention and quick hands on the faders, but you might want to try just talking with the guitar player about it first.

 

[longfinger]

If there was a nice descending bass line of root, Maj7, min7, 6, etc., I was met with dissonance because the guitarist was still pounding out the root over top of the bass.

To me that is a register issue as opposed to 4 beat comping issue. He is playing root notes and big chords too low on the guitar register. Muddies up the band voicing. If he was doing the same comping but say an octave higher on the D string and thinner, it would have sounded better. Takes a little more skill though.

Being too critical? Well no, but things like that are best dealt with at rehearsals, not gig time.

But be happy, it could have been a keyboardist doing the same thing an octave lower than the guitar! Ouch!

 

[packhowitzer]

Think of it as a menage trois but where there's no safe word or pre-agreed upon boundaries. the sky's the limit!

 

[Engle]

Try telling them that. Lol

(I know you clarified that with "...great rhythm guitarist.")

I think the issue is that many guitarists learn and practice the songs by themselves and strum up, down, back and forth like a folk singer at a pep rally without thinking to adjust their technique to an ensemble arrangement, or sometimes even for an electric guitar.
A good sound guy can adjust for this with attention and quick hands on the faders, but you might want to try just talking with the guitar player about it first.

That's a great line! strum up, down, back and forth like a folk singer at a pep rally
I play in a reggae band and a "lead" guitarist was brought in by the singer. Apparently he had worked with this guy before. The guy noodled constantly, basically just running blues scales.
Then I asked him to play something rhythmic and he played bar chords on 1,2,3,4...

 

[micguy]

Try playing in a band with 3 guitars... mush anyone?

In church, I often have 2 electrics, 2 acoustics, keys, and a track to work with or around. Generally means I stay in my lane, and work rhythms to work with whatever the drummer is doing.

And sometimes, it's one electric, me, and drums.

 

[dBChad]

I focus on staying in tight lockstep with the drummer. When we're locked in, the rest usually follows us. Of course I only play with one guitarist, and we actually listen to each other when we play.

 

[Runnerman]

Try playing in a band with 3 guitars... mush anyone?

Iron Maiden seems to make it work.

It's all about listening and playing to the song.

 

[lat]

In church, I often have 2 electrics, 2 acoustics, keys, and a track to work with or around. Generally means I stay in my lane, and work rhythms to work with whatever the drummer is doing.

And sometimes, it's one electric, me, and drums.

Yeah, in that band, I keep my head down and stay in my lane. Just wish everyone else would. Not so much getting in my lane, but in each others... oh well, it is what it is and I just focus on locking in with the drummer...

 

[HolmeBass]

I find this an interesting thread, as I'm a newly converted guitarist-to-bassist. My hope is to play in a band that has two guitarists (one acoustic/electric, one electric), a drummer and a keyboardist.

As a long-time rhythm guitar player, I'm finding I need to adjust. The first thing I think I need to do is to follow the bass drum. My sense is that drum-and-bass are the timekeepers, hence the term "rhythm section." As a rhythm guitarist, I tend to follow the lead guitar, keeping the theme of the song alive while the lead does his solo thing.

My work as a rhythm guitarist consists of using chord inversions where applicable, and sometimes inserting fills as needed. I suspect as I get better with the bass, I'll be doing much the same. But I believe my place in a band is to be the bottom of the rhythm section. Am I wrong?

You don't consider the rhythm guitarist and keys to be part of the rhythm section? Because I sure do.

 

[HolmeBass]

I don't really view the rhythm guitar as following the lead, more so to provide the appropriate chords to work with and accentuate the back beat in the strictest sense, aside from the occasional arpeggio or leading chord which typically occurs on the 1 or at the back end of the measure. Good rhythm guitarists generally refrain from playing the root, playing inversions to have the 3rds, 7ths and the upper extensions.

Unless they have another voice playing tight harmony to the lead, the lead voice usually likes free, open space to do what they want, otherwise they get blocked in too, and can't phrase things the way they want. If there is tight harmony from another voice, it's still best for the rhythm guitar to stay out of the way and give them both space. The bass provides the foundation for all of this to be built upon.

That's my concept of the ideal situation.

Rhythm guitarists and keys should both avoid roots and 5ths, focus on chord quality (the 3rd) and tensions. I seldom want to hear any electric guitarist play all 6 strings, unless they are making some kind of an emphatic statement.