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Bass Guitar / Rhythm Guitar / Drums relationship

byacey

byacey

May 16, 2008
5,224
7,646
St. Albert, Alberta, Canada
#1
I played a New Years gig last night, and wasn't very happy about the choice of rhythm guitarist. The guitarist was chopping out rhythm over top of the bass all night, blocking me in so I couldn't move anywhere away from the root or fifth. If there was a nice descending bass line of root, Maj7, min7, 6, etc., I was met with dissonance because the guitarist was still pounding out the root over top of the bass.

This sort of mentality drives me nuts. I'm from the old school where in 4/4, if the bass is playing 2 to the bar, he plays on beat 1 and 3, and rhythm guitar takes 2 and 4 for his chords on the back beat.

Towards the end of the night we were playing a 3/4 song and I had enough already, so for a few bars I switched to playing the bass on 2 and 3 to see if he would get the message, - and the guitarist didn't even notice. I wonder what the hell he was listening to?

I'm accustomed to being free to go where I want with the bass, creating lines, and setting up the harmonies for the group through leading notes.

Am I being too critical?
 
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#5
Torrente Cro said:
I had a rhythm guitarist like that, he wasn't even capable of understanding what was wrong.
I left a band (not because of that) and now I pick guitarists more carefully, and prefer single guitarist.
Click to expand...
When I was a teenager, I was mentored by a great, jazz influenced guitarist who was about 26 years my senior. He instilled in me the role that the different seats in the band fulfilled, and what was in good taste, and not.
He introduced me to recordings of great guitarists, Johnny Smith, Buddy Merril, George Barnes, Charlie Byrd, etc.

What he taught me about being a bassist went far beyond that particular role, but also how to listen and hear the big picture of a complete, well rounded group.
Even though he moved across the country to the Maritimes, We still keep in touch.
 
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#6
Are these cover songs or originals? Are you playing the bass lines note for note, as written, or are you improvising your own original bass lines? What about the guitarist? Is he playing what's on the record, or improvising his own parts? Was he provided with accurate sheet music or chord charts, showing rests on beats 1 & 3 like you want him to play? Is he playing his parts correctly or making mistakes? Is this root, 7, b7, 6 descending bass line part of the original song, or a surprise you are dropping on your bandmates? Is the NYE gig working with a sub guitarist the best time to spontaneously reharmonize the song, or maybe it's better to stick to the script?
 
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#8
I find this an interesting thread, as I'm a newly converted guitarist-to-bassist. My hope is to play in a band that has two guitarists (one acoustic/electric, one electric), a drummer and a keyboardist.

As a long-time rhythm guitar player, I'm finding I need to adjust. The first thing I think I need to do is to follow the bass drum. My sense is that drum-and-bass are the timekeepers, hence the term "rhythm section." As a rhythm guitarist, I tend to follow the lead guitar, keeping the theme of the song alive while the lead does his solo thing.

My work as a rhythm guitarist consists of using chord inversions where applicable, and sometimes inserting fills as needed. I suspect as I get better with the bass, I'll be doing much the same. But I believe my place in a band is to be the bottom of the rhythm section. Am I wrong?
 
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#9
Yea... there's more to playing rhythm than just not playing the lead line. Everyone needs to know where they fit in and be ready to adjust for every style of music and every style of player.
My guess is the guitarist in the OP was either inexperienced or selfish.
 
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#10
As a bassist I've always considered myself a servant. If the guitar player, or keyboard player are hot shots and want to show off, I pull back, sit in the pocket with the drummer and give them a platform to strut their stuff. In my humble opinion, that's why I'm there. To make the rest of the band sound good.
 
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#11
OldStrummer said:
My sense is that drum-and-bass are the timekeepers, hence the term "rhythm section."
Click to expand...

apologies for being didactic.
"rhythm section" usually encompasses bass, drums, percussion, guitar and piano.
It comes from Jazz I guess: The part of the band that keeps playing when solos happen.

Except bass. Everyone stops when the bass solos. They have no clue what to do without us.
 
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#12
OldStrummer said:
I find this an interesting thread, as I'm a newly converted guitarist-to-bassist. My hope is to play in a band that has two guitarists (one acoustic/electric, one electric), a drummer and a keyboardist.

As a long-time rhythm guitar player, I'm finding I need to adjust. The first thing I think I need to do is to follow the bass drum. My sense is that drum-and-bass are the timekeepers, hence the term "rhythm section." As a rhythm guitarist, I tend to follow the lead guitar, keeping the theme of the song alive while the lead does his solo thing.

My work as a rhythm guitarist consists of using chord inversions where applicable, and sometimes inserting fills as needed. I suspect as I get better with the bass, I'll be doing much the same. But I believe my place in a band is to be the bottom of the rhythm section. Am I wrong?
Click to expand...
I don't really view the rhythm guitar as following the lead, more so to provide the appropriate chords to work with and accentuate the back beat in the strictest sense, aside from the occasional arpeggio or leading chord which typically occurs on the 1 or at the back end of the measure. Good rhythm guitarists generally refrain from playing the root, playing inversions to have the 3rds, 7ths and the upper extensions.

Unless they have another voice playing tight harmony to the lead, the lead voice usually likes free, open space to do what they want, otherwise they get blocked in too, and can't phrase things the way they want. If there is tight harmony from another voice, it's still best for the rhythm guitar to stay out of the way and give them both space. The bass provides the foundation for all of this to be built upon.

That's my concept of the ideal situation.
 
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#16
OldStrummer said:
I find this an interesting thread, as I'm a newly converted guitarist-to-bassist. My hope is to play in a band that has two guitarists (one acoustic/electric, one electric), a drummer and a keyboardist.

As a long-time rhythm guitar player, I'm finding I need to adjust. The first thing I think I need to do is to follow the bass drum. My sense is that drum-and-bass are the timekeepers, hence the term "rhythm section." As a rhythm guitarist, I tend to follow the lead guitar, keeping the theme of the song alive while the lead does his solo thing.

My work as a rhythm guitarist consists of using chord inversions where applicable, and sometimes inserting fills as needed. I suspect as I get better with the bass, I'll be doing much the same. But I believe my place in a band is to be the bottom of the rhythm section. Am I wrong?
Click to expand...
Are you wrong? Yes and No.

I know not all rock musicians (I am one) adhere to this, but in schooled jazz bands it is understood the bass sets the rhythm. The drummer should be complimenting the bass with his kick drum. His hands are mostly for supporting the lead instrument and adding rhythmic flavors to the song. A good rhythm guitar player should supporting the chord structure and progression. The bass leads the changes and the rhythm guitar should be following that. So if you are doing a walk to the next chord, the guitar should either follow the bass or stay out of the way.
That is the perfect world. In the real world, we have to work with what we have.
 
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#17
Mushroo said:
Are these cover songs or originals? Are you playing the bass lines note for note, as written, or are you improvising your own original bass lines? What about the guitarist? Is he playing what's on the record, or improvising his own parts? Was he provided with accurate sheet music or chord charts, showing rests on beats 1 & 3 like you want him to play? Is he playing his parts correctly or making mistakes? Is this root, 7, b7, 6 descending bass line part of the original song, or a surprise you are dropping on your bandmates? Is the NYE gig working with a sub guitarist the best time to spontaneously reharmonize the song, or maybe it's better to stick to the script?
Click to expand...
No, these wren't originals, mainly contemporaries from the 30's through 60's. He had charts for many of the tunes, but didn't bother using them. Most of these tunes are pretty simple and straightforward.
 
#18
Gravedigger Dav said:
Are you wrong? Yes and No.

I know not all rock musicians (I am one) adhere to this, but in schooled jazz bands it is understood the bass sets the rhythm. The drummer should be complimenting the bass with his kick drum. His hands are mostly for supporting the lead instrument and adding rhythmic flavors to the song. A good rhythm guitar player should supporting the chord structure and progression. The bass leads the changes and the rhythm guitar should be following that. So if you are doing a walk to the next chord, the guitar should either follow the bass or stay out of the way.
That is the perfect world. In the real world, we have to work with what we have.
Click to expand...
Rock is a different situation.
 
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