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Bass Guitar Samples & Composing - I need some basic advice

A

AwaitingBass

Apr 10, 2012
9
0
#1
Hello,
I have a few very basic questions that hopefuly anyone with some bass guitar experience should be able to help me with. I would appreciate Your thoughts and suggestions as it would help me to resolve the situation I am currently in.

I am not a bass player, I am vocalist and guitar player. I however need to include some bass guitar samples for my demo song and will be using Reason's bass guitar samples. Music genre: folk punk rock / country.

Question No. 1 In the most basic scenario - should bass guitar follow(play) at the exact same positions(hits) that bass drum is playing ?

For example, if bass drums hits are marked with 1, and empty(non playing) positions are marked with 0, with 16 steps, and if the bass drum is playing the following:

1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0

Should then the bass guitar have the exact same pattern as the bass drum ?


Question No. 2 I need to know if bass guitar note/chord should match guitar chords and vocals in the given time frame ? I have tried putting a few bass guitar positions that sound perfectly fine when combined with drums only, but once I try to play the guitar with it, at points it feels off key or something I can't explain, guitar is doing one chord, while bass is playing another, or its off beat... I have no problem to play the guitar while listening to drums alone but it feels very ackward to play the guitar while focusing on bass guitar.
 
#3
the strong beats (esp. 1 ) of bass guitar generally match guitar chords in a given bar; the weak beats can propel toward next note or chord by using chromatic step wise or scalar notes or chord notes or ...

or a recurring bassline that fits the chord progression or ...
 
#4
I tried all I could so far and experimented, I'm simply at the point where I need a breakthrough advice on those 2 questions, to figure out what the most basic & correct approach in theory should be.

I have tried using bass root notes on every bass drum beat.. its good enough and simple enough for what I need at this point.. if I for example use a bass guitar root note on every bass drum position and exchange it in the next.. for example E B E B... it sounds fine with drums alone BUT playing guitar on top of that somehow doesn't sound right - playing chords E and B on guitar does not fit with the bass notes. I'm not sure if thats how it should be or I'm doing something wrong.

Essentially, I can't figure out - if at the time the bass guitar note is E, does at that very same time rhythm guitar has to play E chord or not. In my case bass guitar goes fast like EBEBEBEB... notes and rhythm guitars plays EEEBEEEB or something like that.
 
#5
The very basics: Quarter notes, ie. 4 to a bar will keep you out of trouble. In bass we do not strum the chord it's see the chord and then play the chord's note one note at a time. The beat is the thing. How many of the chord's notes need sounding is the next challenge. I play Country the following works with Country, Pop and Rock. Use as much of the following as you think fits with your music.
Code: 
Major Scale Box. 

G|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string
D|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---|
A|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E|-------|---R---|-------|---2---|4th string


If it is 4/4 time -- Root on 1 and if you need more put the five on 3. The 8, and the correct 3 & 7 work in nicely if you have time for them. Roots, fives, and 8's are generic and safe. Need more use the correct 3 & 7. No need to go beyond the 7ths right now.

Yes follow the drummer but I doubt he will be using a 1000. Lock in on his kick drum.

C chord = R-3-5-8
Cm = R-b3-5-8 or R-b3-5-b7
Cmaj7 = R-3-5-7
C7 = R-3-5-b7
Cm7b5 = R-b3-b5-b7 The 1/2 diminished chord

If the chords get fancier than that - right now - just worry with root on 1 with a 5 on 3 and leave the other stuff to the other instruments.

Root on 1 and then using the above as a guide, pretty much what ever you feel sounds appropriate. Until you know what you are doing - less is more. Maintain the beat and do not step on toes (get in the way) of the solo instruments.

Of course this is all IMO.

The following video helped pull this all into perspective for me. Listen to the generic bass line the double bass is using.
 
#6
Yeah, I use 4/4, keeping it simple all the way. Ok, so playing bass guitar the exact same positions as kick drum is the most basic rule. Thanks, that answers my No.1 question.

I'd appreciate more inputs regarding my 2nd question. I still can't figure out how to fit the bass guitar notes and rhythm guitar. If my bass guitar follows kick drum in every position and goes fast exchange of notes EXXXBXXXEXXXBXXX and my rhythm guitar at starts plays E chord during all this time EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE and only later adds B in the pattern... is this wrong ??? Essentially - can rhythm guitar be playing E chord while the bass guitar is doing B note at that very time ??? This should be a very simple question and the answer would help me big time to start rolling on my demo.
 
#7
Rhythm guitar would play the C chord this way;
C chord is made from the C E & G notes and he strums them all at the same time - you get one sound.

The bass would play those same notes, but, one note at a time. Perhaps just the Root note - R-R-R-R four quarter notes (beats) to the bar (or just 2 half notes to the bar) while the rhythm guitar strums one strum per lyric word. Go look at some lead sheet music and see how the lyric words and the time signature play out together. As a singer this may help the light come on.

The rhythm guitar's job is to harmonize the melody notes, he does that by playing those melody notes in a strum that produces all those note sounds at one time.

Your job is to use those same notes - so you also harmonize with what the vocalist and the horns and the sax, and the guitar is doing, but, your primary job is to yes harmonize but in doing so lay down a beat. The beat is our numbers 1 job. Thus the time signature of the song is important to you. We have been speaking of 4/4 time so that is your prime concern.

Go back and see how the double bass is doing this with the vocalist/pianist. You posted before I added that video.
 
#8
Well, I am playing the guitar, so essentially chords are what I am familiar with. I do know that each chord is made of 3 notes.. Theory is not my stronger side, but I think I'm starting to understand Your point..

So bass guitar does only 1 note at the time, while rhythm guitar does a whole chord. Essentially, that would mean that as long as bass guitar is playing a note that exists in the chord that rhythm guitar is playing - then there is no way to go wrong, it only matters that that the note beeing played on the bass guitar exists in the rhythm guitar chord while its beeing played ? It doesn't really matter which ? All I would have to do is to dissolve rhythm guitar chords to individual notes - and make sure to develop the bass pattern based on those. Going off key then would be impossible ?
 
#9
But.. easier said than done:
For example:

Major chord table
Chord Root Major third Perfect fifth
E E G♯ B
B B D♯ F♯

If I use chords E & B on rhythm guitar.. bass guitar notes in pattern can be EBEBEB... while E guitar chord is playing, but when the B is playing - turns out that bass guitar can't keep on playing both EB notes pattern, because there is no E note in B chord. I guess now I know where the problem was ! Will have to work on a solution and make a new bass guitar pattern to fit both chords.
 
#10
AwaitingBass said:
But.. easier said than done:
For example:

Major chord table
Chord Root Major third Perfect fifth
E E G♯ B
B B D♯ F♯

If I use chords E & B on rhythm guitar.. bass guitar notes in pattern can be EBEBEB... while E guitar chord is playing, but when the B is playing - turns out that bass guitar can't keep on playing both EB notes pattern, because there is no E note in B chord. I guess now I know where the problem was ! Will have to work on a solution and make a new bass guitar pattern to fit both chords.
Click to expand...
Yes, or you could let the major scale box be one pattern for both chords and take care of all that for you, i.e. no need right now in knowing the notes of every chord, just know that once you place the root the scale degrees (3's, 5's, 7's etc.) are always in the same place in the box just waiting on you to use them. In relationship to the root, the 3 is always up a string and back one fret. The 5 is always up a string and over two frets, etc. Once you put that to memory, let the pattern help you with where the specific notes within the chord are located.


Use that major scale box I gave you.
Code: 
Bass Patterns based upon the Major Scale box.

Major Scale Box. 

G|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string
D|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---|
A|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E|-------|---R---|-------|---2---|4th string 
See a chord and know what notes make that chord.
Let's say it is the C chord.  Place the R on a C note, 
4th string 8th fret or 3rd string 3rd fret, either one
then let the pattern place the correct notes under
your fingers.  If you play the R-3-5 notes of the box
that will give you the notes of the C triad aka C chord.
Basic Chords for when you are playing accompaniment bass.
• Major Triad = R-3-5
• Minor Triad = R-b3-5
• Diminished Chord = R-b3-b5

7th Chords
• Maj7 = R-3-5-7
• Minor 7 = R-b3-5-b7
• Dominant 7 = R-3-5-b7
• ½ diminished = R-b3-b5-b7
• Full diminished = R-b3-b5-bb7

See a chord and play it's chord tones. As every key will have three major, three minor and one diminished chord it's a good idea to get your major, minor and diminished bass line chord tones into muscle memory so when you see a chord your fingers just know what will work. Now the song may only give you enough room for the root, or root five - adapt and get as many chord tones into your bass line as needed. Root on 1 and a steady groove from the other chord tones plus something to call attention to the chord change will keep you gigging.

Scales for when you are playing melodic - as in your lead solo break.
• Major Scale = R-2-3-4-5-6-7 Home base
• Major Pentatonic = R-2-3-5-6 Leave out the 4 & 7
• Natural Minor Scale = R-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7 Major scale with the 3, 6 & 7 flatted.
• Minor Pentatonic = R-b3-4-5-b7 Leave out the 2 & 6.
• Blues = R-b3-4-b5-5-b7 Minor pentatonic with the blue note b5 added.
• Harmonic Minor Scale = R-2-b3-4-5-b6-7 Natural minor with a natural 7.
• Melodic Minor Scale = R-2-b3-4-5-6-7 Major scale with a b3.
Let the major scale be your home base then change a few notes and you have something different. No need to memorize a zillion patterns. Let the major scale pattern be your go to pattern - then adapt/adjust from there.

Generic Notes - for your bass line.
• The root, five and eight are generic and fit most any chord. Remember the diminished has a flatted 5.
• The 3 is generic to all major chords. So R-3-5-3 will fit under any major chord.
• The b3 is generic to all minor chords. And R-b3-5-8 will fit under any minor chord. Why the 8? Well the 8 is just another root in the next octave.
• The 7 is generic to all maj7 chords. Yep, R-3-5-7 fits nicely.
• The b7 is generic to all dominant seventh and minor seventh chords. G7 = R-3-5-b7 or Gm7 = R-b3-5-b7.
• The 6 is neutral and adds color, help yourself to 6’s. Love the sound of R-3-5-6 with a major chord.
• The 2 and 4 make good passing notes. Don’t linger on them or stop on them, keep them passing.
• In making your bass line help yourself to those notes, just use them correctly.
• Roots, fives, eights and the correct 3 & 7 will play a lot of bass. Play as many of them as you have room for before the song goes off and leaves you, i.e. sometime the root is all the song needs.
Click to expand...
Hope that helps.
 
#11
MalcolmAmos said:
Yes, or you could let the major scale box be one pattern for both chords and take care of all that for you, i.e. no need right now in knowing the notes of every chord, just know that once you place the root the scale degrees (3's, 5's, 7's etc.) are always in the same place in the box just waiting on you to use them. In relationship to the root, the 3 is always up a string and back one fret. The 5 is always up a string and over two frets, etc. Once you put that to memory, let the pattern help you with where the specific notes within the chord are located.
Click to expand...

Many thanks for helping me out Malcolm, it means a lot to figure these things out. Thanks everyone else as well.

For my current demo in progress, I will be using Reason samples of bass guitar, so I guess simplicity and getting it right is primary, so I'll be going with the note of the chord approach.. and once I learn to actually play real bass guitar in the future, I guess then it would make more sense to go with the the major scale box - which honestly I first have to learn how to read.

One more question if I may Malcolm. You mentioned playing country which is essential part of my style as well.. In 4/4, 16 steps drums and bass guitar, how would You describe 'default' country train beat, both for kick drum, snare and bass guitar ? It seems that different people have a different attitude towards it. Would this pattern be too far off in Your opinion..

kick drum & bass guitar
1000 1000 1000 1000
snare drum
0010 0010 0010 0010
 
#12
AwaitingBass said:
Many thanks for helping me out Malcolm, it means a lot to figure these things out. Thanks everyone else as well.

For my current demo in progress, I will be using Reason samples of bass guitar, so I guess simplicity and getting it right is primary, so I'll be going with the note of the chord approach.. and once I learn to actually play real bass guitar in the future, I guess then it would make more sense to go with the the major scale box - which honestly I first have to learn how to read.

One more question if I may Malcolm. You mentioned playing country which is essential part of my style as well.. In 4/4, 16 steps drums and bass guitar, how would You describe 'default' country train beat, both for kick drum, snare and bass guitar ? It seems that different people have a different attitude towards it. Would this pattern be too far off in Your opinion..

kick drum & bass guitar
1000 1000 1000 1000
snare drum
0010 0010 0010 0010
Click to expand...
Lock in on one or the other. We only have the drummer on the "big" gigs, i.e. the ones we get paid to do. We do a lot of Nursing Home gigs and those are for free. On those gigs the bass is the keeper of the beat. So you need to be able to be responsible for the beat when there is no drummer.

We play from fake chord sheet music. No time signature shown, other than an occasional 3/4 on waltz tunes -and 4/4 is taken for granted, so I draw the beat (BPM) from the tempo the vocalist sets while singing the song. After that has been established - I then maintain a steady BPM from that.

Not necessarily the right way, just what I do.
 

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