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Double Bass Bass Method books

#61
Playing against the drone can lead you to playing just thirds and the like, since the ear does not lead us to tempered tuning.
Anyway, Rabbath can work fine, I just think in the interest of being thorough, blowing off Simandl (or Rabbath for that matter) is not a great plan if only to confirm your theory about your personal path or even to get a good historical grounding with the instrument.
Like most areas of musical study it is more beneficial and even easier to just do it than to explain why you don't want to.
the fact is there are clear benefits to doing Simandl, so anyone who has done it will say it is a good plan to just do it, and not make excuses.
 
#62
Honestly, the first two Rabbath books aren't particularly useful by themselves. Many of the directions are poorly translated, misleading, or incomplete. To make the most of them, I think at least some time spent with a teacher (or peer) who is very familiar with Rabbath technique is the best way to go. The third book is more straight forward, although most of it is just scales with some full blown pieces in the back. I think the reason I like them so much is because of the two summers I've spent at Domaine Forget, where Francois Rabbath himself comes for two weeks and takes everyone on a crash course through his technique, with further lessons taught by his pupils.

I'm looking forward to the next set of books. No word yet on when they will be published, but Rabbath has compiled enough material to fill at least another three volumes. Most of it being etudes and solos, some with piano accompaniment.
 
#64
*Dead horse beaten* Personally I was always told simandl was unmusical, and so never spent any time with it, So I can't rather say anything about the technique. The past few years for me have been a study of Rabbath's book three (left hand) and Strokin' Hal Robinson (Right hand). Just isolating a handful of the infinite fingerings and bowings from both of those books, and really getting those ingrained has been pretty invaluable for me. I agree that Rabbath's system can be very set up to play like him...but I think there's a lot to gain out of his left hand technique. Someone earlier mentioned something about only being able to play a major second in one position...Well that's why you can pivot using Rabbath...and why the positions are so much fewer. Enough practice into any of these systems with a good ear, a good teacher, and a good attention to detail...and hell, you gonna be soundin' good!
 
#65
1smileymn said:
*Dead horse beaten* Personally I was always told simandl was unmusical, and so never spent any time with it, So I can't rather say anything about the technique. The past few years for me have been a study of Rabbath's book three (left hand) and Strokin' Hal Robinson (Right hand). Just isolating a handful of the infinite fingerings and bowings from both of those books, and really getting those ingrained has been pretty invaluable for me. I agree that Rabbath's system can be very set up to play like him...but I think there's a lot to gain out of his left hand technique. Someone earlier mentioned something about only being able to play a major second in one position...Well that's why you can pivot using Rabbath...and why the positions are so much fewer. Enough practice into any of these systems with a good ear, a good teacher, and a good attention to detail...and hell, you gonna be soundin' good!
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Simandl may or may not be unmusical, depends on your definition of "musical". Most who make that claim are too lazy to find out.
Those pivots in Rabbath are great for complex solo music with a light touch, but are not often practical for day to day bass playing that needs to be rock solid.
Simandl is is very solid if nothing else, and IMO, playing the bass strong and solid is good step toward being "musical".
 
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#67
MrLenny said:
Nanny Classical Bass Method. French book. Edouard Nanny.
Recommended by John Repucci- Berklee School of Music-Boston
Best thing I ever did for my playing.
Every note has a given fingering and bow strokes.
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It is important that AFTER developing your STRONG Bass fingering is that you develop your 'flexible' Bass fingerings. Pivots, shifts, vibrato on an open string, playing Ds and Gs higher to use vibrato, using less or no vibrato in a section to hold the intonation, etc, etc.. The same applies to the flexibility of bowing. First get strong and then get flexible..
 
#68
I used (and still am using) both Simandl and Nanny and I prefer Simandl.
As MrLenny already said every note has a given fingering and bow strokes with Nanny. That's probably why I like Simandl more ... you have to think more about the fingering and not just read it from the book. For the record, I have to tell you that I'm not a big arco player.
I just found out that my favorite bassplayer [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]wrote his own Link Removed. I'm going to order both books :rolleyes:
 
#69
damonsmith said:
Simandl may or may not be unmusical, depends on your definition of "musical". Most who make that claim are too lazy to find out.
Those pivots in Rabbath are great for complex solo music with a light touch, but are not often practical for day to day bass playing that needs to be rock solid.
Simandl is is very solid if nothing else, and IMO, playing the bass strong and solid is good step toward being "musical".
Click to expand...

Interesting, I find that pivots are extremely useful in orchestral repertoire. Especially in the classical rep, when the notes are flying by so fast that there isn't really that much time to shift. Swinging your hand up a half step for one note can be really useful in eliminating string crossings. I think most people probably "pivot" without even thinking about it when the Mozart or Beethoven hits the stand. If dotted half=96, and you're playing eighth notes, shifting your entire hand up for one note and then back down is just not practical.
 
#72
egbert said:
"I trust upon 'F. Simandle' books. They teach everything"

"What Simandl does cover is universal and important."

"The music, dull as it may be, really develops good intonation"

"Contemporary methods are best understood in relation to Simandl, Billie or Nanny. "

"IMO, Simandl is the best organized and most thorough method to date. "

Coming out of lurk mode for a moment. I think it has to be pointed out that all of these quotes, taken from this thread, are assertions with absolutely no supporting statements. In the interest of stimulating discussion, how exactly can the pro-Simandl lot back up this up? EG, how exactly does Simandl improve intonation so much? What are the principles that is espouses, and why are they so good? It's probably notable that absolutely no other succesful basic string instruction book in the world (the books of Harvey Whistler, Sam Applebaum, Suzuki, etc) is so focused on chromatic excercises- all these other books use alot of diatonic melodies and open strings as reference pitches, which is a fundamentally sound way to teach intonation, period. It's SO much harder to tell when you're in tune if you're grinding away atonally, like the beginning of Simandl. And even though I agree with the idea at least some of our tone comes from the left hand, I wonder how Simandl teaches that? I've never seen anything in his books about that.
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Egbert, Your points are well taken. I find myself going outside the books parenthetically for reasons stated here and elsewhere in this thread but I still use them. Maybe Simandl was hoping a good teacher would flesh them out and infuse them with life and a sense of exploration and curiousity. No tradition can survive merely as a written document.
 
#73
PaulCannon said:
Honestly, the first two Rabbath books aren't particularly useful by themselves. Many of the directions are poorly translated, misleading, or incomplete. To make the most of them, I think at least some time spent with a teacher (or peer) who is very familiar with Rabbath technique is the best way to go. The third book is more straight forward, although most of it is just scales with some full blown pieces in the back. I think the reason I like them so much is because of the two summers I've spent at Domaine Forget, where Francois Rabbath himself comes for two weeks and takes everyone on a crash course through his technique, with further lessons taught by his pupils.

I'm looking forward to the next set of books. No word yet on when they will be published, but Rabbath has compiled enough material to fill at least another three volumes. Most of it being etudes and solos, some with piano accompaniment.
Click to expand...

I agree with Paul, if you really want to learn the Rabbath method, go with a teacher who plays it. The first two books aren't that helpful on their own. Then go through the first two and play the etudes(which are very musical, I use to be Simandl and found it lacking) that your teacher wants you to play so he/she will help you develop your musicality and understanding of what Rabbath was trying to accomplish by putting that etude there.
 
#74
Maybe Simandl was hoping a good teacher would flesh them out and infuse them with life and a sense of exploration and curiousity. No tradition can survive merely as a written document.
Click to expand...

I think that's possibly the wisest comment I've seen in this thread. No one technique as documented in a book can possibly be "the best" or complete. It's clear from the numbers of great bassists who've benefited from Simandl or Nanny or Bille or Rabbath that these books all contain a tremendous amount of useful technique, but it takes a student, a teacher, and hours of practice to bring it all to life.
 
#76
mjt0229 said:
I think that's possibly the wisest comment I've seen in this thread. No one technique as documented in a book can possibly be "the best" or complete. It's clear from the numbers of great bassists who've benefited from Simandl or Nanny or Bille or Rabbath that these books all contain a tremendous amount of useful technique, but it takes a student, a teacher, and hours of practice to bring it all to life.
Click to expand...

+ 1.
 
#77
jbo said:
Hey all. In one posting on this thread someone mentioned the Hungarian school by Lajos Montag. Has anyone worked through these books? If so, what did you think?
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I used (and still use) them coming up. Mainly because my teacher at that time (late 70's) was Hungarian (Bela Wurzler, BSO). I always go back to them. As I remember, the Montag books seem to cover the same ground as Simandl, but as the Montag method is spread out over 4 books compared to the 2 Simandls, the Montag is arguably more in-depth.

And I always enjoyed the fact that even in Book I, interspersed among the standard exercises appeared little folk songs that allowed the player to get their feet wet playing a solo melody.
 
#79
Just so this is slightly less anecdotal I'd like to chime in as a former student of Mr. Smith. I didn't study with him very long, less than a summer and throughout a semester or so. So yeah, we studied out of simandl and after our lessons I spent some time with it again. I agree, even though I really rarely do a no-pivot 124 fingering when I'm sight reading or on a gig I think it set up a really solid foundation for my playing. The etudes are short and simple, easy to hear diatonic melodies which helped intonation. In the same summer we talked about rabbath, storch-hrabe, bach and lots of fingering methods. Ultimately, at UNT where I study, Lynn Seaton and Jeff Bradetich teach what Mr. Smith advocated; a system of combing fingerings. Both of them studied Simandl at a point and think it is important though obviously not the be all end all of methods. Anyways, I think it's really important and in practice Mr. Smiths incorporation of Simandl made a difference in my playing.
 
#80
Tom Gale said:
I didn't like Simandl either nor the others mentioned so I took about 8 years and wrote my own.
All in 4 volumes.
Tom Gale
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sorry. I didn't mean they took 8 years to write. One vol. takes about 6 months to write, edit and use with students. Then the final draft and reuse to be sure. Originally 5 vol.s but I have now combined the last two. American School of D.B., Lemur, etc., handle them. Also I.S.B. Has them in stock.
Tom Gale
 
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