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Bass straight into PA sub - is this possible?

J

Jaz167

Guest
Mar 11, 2017
4
0
#1
I currently have a 60w Fender Rumble. So far, it’s been okay for the small venues and type of gigs I’ve played. I’ve just been offered a gig next Friday and the Fender will not be up to it.

I don’t want to buy a more powerful rig yet and have an alternative idea that I think should work but would appreciate your views and advice, especially if you’ve tried what I’m about to suggest.

I have a HK Elements (modular) PA with two (E210 SUB AS) active subs. As you may know, each have two amps inside, one for the bass sub and additional passive subs and the other for the highs that mount on top of the subs.

The subs are very powerful and I was thinking I could use one instead of a bass rig. Rather than going through a mixer I was thinking I could use a bass effects pedal via a DI box to feed a signal straight into the sub. I’ve tentatively tried it and it appears to work. The pedal I’m using is a Boss ME-50B. It must have some kind of preamp to be driving the signal enough for the sub to work, although this is reduced considerably when the compression is switched on. I’ve tried both passive and active DI boxes and (understandably) the active provides a stronger signal and thus achieves a more powerful sound at the sub.

This would be a simple and very cost effective solution to my problem but is it too good to be true? All seems fine when I’ve tried it but I’m not brave enough to push it at a gig without some reassurance. Will this solution be okay or do I risk damaging my amp?
 
#2
Jaz167 said:
I currently have a 60w Fender Rumble. So far, it’s been okay for the small venues and type of gigs I’ve played. I’ve just been offered a gig next Friday and the Fender will not be up to it.

I don’t want to buy a more powerful rig yet and have an alternative idea that I think should work but would appreciate your views and advice, especially if you’ve tried what I’m about to suggest.

I have a HK Elements (modular) PA with two (E210 SUB AS) active subs. As you may know, each have two amps inside, one for the bass sub and additional passive subs and the other for the highs that mount on top of the subs.

The subs are very powerful and I was thinking I could use one instead of a bass rig. Rather than going through a mixer I was thinking I could use a bass effects pedal via a DI box to feed a signal straight into the sub. I’ve tentatively tried it and it appears to work. The pedal I’m using is a Boss ME-50B. It must have some kind of preamp to be driving the signal enough for the sub to work, although this is reduced considerably when the compression is switched on. I’ve tried both passive and active DI boxes and (understandably) the active provides a stronger signal and thus achieves a more powerful sound at the sub.

This would be a simple and very cost effective solution to my problem but is it too good to be true? All seems fine when I’ve tried it but I’m not brave enough to push it at a gig without some reassurance. Will this solution be okay or do I risk damaging my amp?
Click to expand...
Just as a plan B... could you mic the Rumble?
 
#4
If you bass amp has an effects loop, you can use a powered sub by sending it to the sub, the sub with a build in crossover then separates out the low bass to it's internal amp, and sends the highs back to the head.
The bass amp is now only handling the mids and highs and it can get much louder. Think that 60w is loud for a guitarist.
The sub handles all the lows and it has it own power.

It's an instant power boost. You get to keep all the "tone" of the bass amp because the mids and highs are where all the tone is.
 
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#6
Jaz167 said:
The subs are very powerful and I was thinking I could use one instead of a bass rig
Click to expand...
No, you cannot.

You can use subs to complement a bass rig, but you cannot use subs instead of a bass rig.

If you do, you will lose all the mids and highs that allow the bass to be heard and sound like a bass.
 
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#7
A PA does good work at sound reinforcement. Because of its design it's made to reproduce what's already happened not to be a musical instrument.

If you don't need a larger amp in your future, rent one for this gig. Bass amps are designed to take the transients and give bass guitar tone and not self destruct. The PA has ways of not being damaged and presenting a mix that may and often does differ from our tone goals.
 
#8
Wow, what a quick response! I popped out for the evening and voila, lots of useful answers. Thanks for the help everyone. Seamonkey, the rumble does have an effects loop but I didn't realise it could be used for this, i'll give it a go. I am starting to think I should buy a more powerful bass comi.
 
#9
Sure it is possible, though without some sort of dedicated preamp and considerably thoughts payed to Eq'ing or some sort of speaker emulator it will likely not sound great.

Personally I actually use an active PA speaker at the moment in conjunction with my bass combo.

What I do is taking the signal from the combo's tuner output (my combo's preamp signal, pre EQ, on instrument level and impedance) then run it into a Joyo Orange Juice for some light grid, a graphic EQ pedal for voicing the the PA more like a bass amp and finally a cheap mic preamp, mainly for adapting the signal from instrument to line level, before going into my active PA speaker.

Soon I am going to replace what the PA does for me with a small all tube bass amp though, but for now it actually work quite well.

Unfortunately for you the ME-50B does not have any amp emulators, like a lot of digital multi effects usually have, as it focus merely on regular effects.

The amp emulations on these multi effects usually also include cab sims.

They are usual not great, but normally quite decent at doing their job.

If you have the money maybe invest in some sort of dedicated bass preamp or DI with speaker emulation to put before your PA, or do like I do and use an EQ to boost some lows and low mids and cut some highs, and you might be able to obtain something useful.

If I were you I would not scrap the combo though but run it on side with your PA speaker (or through it, I assume your amp has a line out or DI build in. And if that is the case all you might need for it to work will be a good EQ, or preferable some sort of speaker emulator).

Edit:

Guess I didn't read your post properly, as I thought they were active PA speakers.

But since only your subs are active, then no!

Unless you invest in a power amp, and that kind of defies the whole purpose of you saving money on a new amp.
 
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#10
I occasionally run sound for bands which give a unique perspective on tone.

Last weekend I ran sound for a 7 piece Allman bros tribute band, 2 drummers and percussion, bass, 2 guitars, keys, vocals. It's a real challenge finding sonic space for all of these instruments, especially with no time for soundcheck.

The bass player supplied me with a line out and I ran the tops from stereo outs, sub from an aux send. As I mixed I found that the more bass I had in the sub, the less I heard what he was playing. Th sub gave a big thump, but no definition. For the music they were playing hearing what the bass was playing is important.

The final mix had maybe 80% of the bass sound coming from the tops, the subs mostly gave the kicks and toms punch, nothing more.

Bottom line, unless you're trying to provide a thump and nothing more, a sub won't do it. Also remember, the classic Ampeg tone rolls off everything below 150Hz.
 
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#14
Jaz167 said:
I currently have a 60w Fender Rumble. So far, it’s been okay for the small venues and type of gigs I’ve played. I’ve just been offered a gig next Friday and the Fender will not be up to it.

I don’t want to buy a more powerful rig yet and have an alternative idea that I think should work but would appreciate your views and advice, especially if you’ve tried what I’m about to suggest.

I have a HK Elements (modular) PA with two (E210 SUB AS) active subs. As you may know, each have two amps inside, one for the bass sub and additional passive subs and the other for the highs that mount on top of the subs.

The subs are very powerful and I was thinking I could use one instead of a bass rig. Rather than going through a mixer I was thinking I could use a bass effects pedal via a DI box to feed a signal straight into the sub. I’ve tentatively tried it and it appears to work. The pedal I’m using is a Boss ME-50B. It must have some kind of preamp to be driving the signal enough for the sub to work, although this is reduced considerably when the compression is switched on. I’ve tried both passive and active DI boxes and (understandably) the active provides a stronger signal and thus achieves a more powerful sound at the sub.

This would be a simple and very cost effective solution to my problem but is it too good to be true? All seems fine when I’ve tried it but I’m not brave enough to push it at a gig without some reassurance. Will this solution be okay or do I risk damaging my amp?
Click to expand...

Play through just a sub woofer and nothing else ...

this is a really bad idea ...

A lot of subs stop at 100hz to 200hz ... this means no mids ... no overtones ... bad idea. Or run a line out into a good pa system

a better solution add a powered sub to the line out on your rig.
 
#16
seamonkey said:
If you bass amp has an effects loop, you can use a powered sub by sending it to the sub, the sub with a build in crossover then separates out the low bass to it's internal amp, and sends the highs back to the head.
The bass amp is now only handling the mids and highs and it can get much louder. Think that 60w is loud for a guitarist.
The sub handles all the lows and it has it own power.

It's an instant power boost. You get to keep all the "tone" of the bass amp because the mids and highs are where all the tone is.
Click to expand...

So far this is the best answer for OP if they insist on using the sub.
 
#17
I will chime in, you tried it, was there enough mids and high end for your notes to have the needed pitch definition? This of course has a lot to do with the kind of music you play.

But Jimmy's idea to bring the sub and a top seems pretty solid.

I don't think you'll hurt the amp. You've already noted I has a compressor (built-in?) protecting it. It's all about tonal goals and what you and your bandmates need to hear on stage.
 
#19
Loads of good advice. I haven't had time to try out some of the suggestions but will let you know when I do. I'm going to try a few combis this week just in case I need a plan B. I appreciate it's a lot to do with personal preference but (at the risk of opening a huge can of worms) what should I be looking at in the £500-£1,000 range...
 

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