Double Bass Bass v Cello

[gypsydjango]

I'm not sure I'm in the right Forum--but here goes:

I play D/B--standard tuning (EADG). I want to play the play Cello. Have anybody tuned their Cello to D/B tuning? Does it work OK?

 

[smeet]

I haven't done this, although I have heard of a well-known jazz player that did it (can't remember who at the moment).

I think it's a mistake to tune a 'cello in 4ths. It would of course be a quicker way to get started on it as a bass player, but the instrument was designed to be tuned and fingered in 5ths.

IMHO:

If you just want to use it as a higher-pitched bass and play mostly pizzicato, then I guess it doesn't matter. But...
To really play 'cello, you are going to have to learn a whole new set of techniques, from the way you hold it, to the way you bow it, to reading treble and tenor clefs, etc. You may as well learn the proper tuning/fingering.

It's a beautiful instrument, well worth learning legitimatelyif you have the money and time.

 

[Nagrom]

I have copy of Ray Brown's recording where he played a cello tuned in fourths. Seemed to work for him, but...

 

[carl h.]

Learn the standard tuning. It will pay off.

 

[bassteban]

Didn't Percy Heath put bass tuners on a cello & tune it in 4ths, or am I having an early(-ish )onset-Alzheimer's moment?

 

[Mike Goodbar]

Kay once marketed a cello for bass players, tuned in 4ths with bass-style tuners. I actually played in a community orch where one of the cellist played one of these (tuned in 5ths, of course). I think Ray was an endorser for that.

 

[fdeck]

I have gotten out my cello again, and it is not too hard to go back and forth. The only amusing thing is that I still can't play jazz on the cello. My reptilian brain is programmed in fourths tuning. But I'm sure that's just a matter of practice.

 

[chuck3]

My reptilian brain is programmed in fourths tuning.

I'm trying to play some mandolin for a few songs in one of my bands, and I can attest that my reptilian brain is programmed the same way.

 

[Fletcher Lanning]

Watch out. If you learn to play in fifths you might get some crazy ideas in your head about re-tuning your bass. Once you get the hang of it, playing in fifths is kind of addicting.

 

[red_on_red]

I have gotten out my cello again, and it is not too hard to go back and forth. The only amusing thing is that I still can't play jazz on the cello. My reptilian brain is programmed in fourths tuning. But I'm sure that's just a matter of practice.

I started on cello, still pick it up the odd time, and I don't find it a problem switching. But I can't play jazz on the cello either.

FWIW I've tried fifths tuning on the bass a couple of times, once for a whole semester of music school. If I only played orchestral rep, I might stick with it - but for some reason the jazz brain doesn't like the fifths. Something about fourths, fifths, octaves, and harmonics in muscle memory.

I do recommend cello in the standard fifths tuning though. It's a different instrument with a different mind-map. YMMV, etc., etc.

 

[gypsydjango]

Thanks everybody for contributing to my question about tuning, and your kowledge. I think the only way to go is Cello tuning. Instruments are made for specific tunings---so when I get my Cello that is the way I shall go.
Many thanks.
Mike

 

[smeet]

I am interested by the people that say they can't play jazz on the cello. Do you think that has something to do with the 5th tuning, the fact that it is a bowed instrument, or is it the way you learned the instrument?

I played classical violin for many years, and then made the transition to rock and jazz, and it was always very difficult to play jazz well. The bow makes swinging very difficult. I have noticed the same thing with many other players of bowed violin-type instruments, even if they are excellent players, the swing isn't there... Anybody have ideas about this?

 

[Fletcher Lanning]

For whatever reason, a lot of the classical musicians I know tend to have trouble with getting that swing feel. Some of it is in the bow. It complicates the problem because you have to actively think about how you're going to bow a complicated lick (I usually hook-bow swing eighths but that doesn't work all the time with lots of syncopations). In a difficult classical piece, I can look at a difficult section and mark out my bowing to keep myself on track. I really think that bowing is one of the major hurdles for an improvising jazz cello player.

I also think that a lot of jazz chord voicings are based on fourths, so being able to work around that interval is useful. When you tune in fifths you lose a lot of the standard positional tricks that you're used to and it takes a little more thought to do simple arpeggiations.

That being said, I know a cello player who is an amazing classical performer but has found a pretty hip place to sit in the groove when we play jazz. That may be because he played jazz (guitar) before he played the cello at all. I should ask him how he deals with bowing.

 

[Hemispheres85]

The bass would probably still be tuned in 5ths if it weren't so big!

If one were to tune a cello in 4ths, that would completely change the range, the tone and the natural resonance of the instrument! It really isn't that difficult to re-learn an instrument in 5ths.

MAKE NO MISTAKE- a cello is NOT a bass and you would have to learn a completely new technique to play cello, so you might as well learn to play in 5ths! Don't sacrifice a cello's nature for the sake of convenience to you. I don't think there has ever been a professional (or successful!) cellist that has tuned in 4ths. Any cellist would likely call doing so useless.

 

[Square Bear]

For whatever reason, a lot of the classical musicians I know tend to have trouble with getting that swing feel. Some of it is in the bow. It complicates the problem because you have to actively think about how you're going to bow a complicated lick (I usually hook-bow swing eighths but that doesn't work all the time with lots of syncopations). In a difficult classical piece, I can look at a difficult section and mark out my bowing to keep myself on track. I really think that bowing is one of the major hurdles for an improvising jazz cello player.

I also think that a lot of jazz chord voicings are based on fourths, so being able to work around that interval is useful. When you tune in fifths you lose a lot of the standard positional tricks that you're used to and it takes a little more thought to do simple arpeggiations.

That being said, I know a cello player who is an amazing classical performer but has found a pretty hip place to sit in the groove when we play jazz. That may be because he played jazz (guitar) before he played the cello at all. I should ask him how he deals with bowing.

one thing that works for me when i play jazz tunes arco on the bass is to use the "shoe shine" bowing (up-down up-down) instead of hooking the 8ths. i tried this based on my old teacher's advice, and i think it works better than hooked in most cases. it's nice because it tends to get the accented syncopations on down bows.

 

[Square Bear]

on the topic at hand, it seems to me that playing the cello tuned in 4ths makes as much sense as tuning a viola like a violin. then again, i've heard of studio guitarists playing banjo tuned in 4ths and there is not much argument against that (except from the banjo players who lose out on the studio work). i guess whatever floats your boat...

 

[paganjack]

I started on cello as well, and I have never even through about tuning it in 4ths. I might try it out, but it's programmed in my brain as 5ths and will probably sound better like that anyway.

As far as playing jazz...I can kinda do it, but admittedly it is more difficult than jazz on the upright. I started jazz on the upright, but I never had any problem playing in classical orchestras on the upright. Weird.

 

[Chris Symer]

I am interested by the people that say they can't play jazz on the cello. Do you think that has something to do with the 5th tuning, the fact that it is a bowed instrument, or is it the way you learned the instrument?

Sorry, but somebody has to do it....LISTEN TO RED MITCHELL!!!! There, I got that out of my system. It should answer your question about playing jazz in fifths though.

As for "standard positional tricks" that you lose as opposed to playing in fourths, it's actually not an issue at all. Granted there are some things that are easier in fourths, but there are just as many that are easier in fifths. It's a pretty even trade in my opinion. Having switched to fifths I can say that I arpegiate things as thoughtlessly as I ever did in fourths. It's just a different rut to be stuck in.

 

[bejoyous]

Last summer I borrowed a cello from a school. I tried to play it in fifths but my brain is too wired for fourths. I tuned it as I tune my bass (DADG). It turns out it has almost the same string length as a classical guitar. Voila! I was an instant cello player.

The tone of the instrument was the same. However, keep in mind it's a plywood school instrument.

 

[gypsydjango]

Thanks everybody for all your views on the Bass & Cello---a fund of interesting replies.

Mike