chunger said:
I’m digging up an old post here because I wanted to know, was this the NP4 pickup with the 5% overwind or the stock NP4 with longer magnets?
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
basses for newbies (SX batch build thread)
- Thread starter chunger
- Start date
- Status
I’m digging up an old post here because I wanted to know, was this the NP4 pickup with the 5% overwind or the stock NP4 with longer magnets?
My current standard p-bass pickup is the variant with the longer magnets. I have had the 5% overwound prototype on hand for quite a while, but the current standard is so good that I haven't installed and tested the 5% overwound one. I have a pretty good idea of where it will land having tested stock and 10% overwound. It should sit somewhere in the middle.
I have had more time to sit with the NJ4 that is currently in #17 that is running longer magnets, and that prototype B pickup is really, really nice sounding. It's a bit bolder of an NJ4 with some weight on the lows, but certainly not as growly and forward as the prototype B pickup or the stock SX ones. Makes me wonder if I should re-think my plan to just standardize on 1 jazz-type pickup. Certainly, the prototype A pickup will yield a unique voicing which may be to my advantage in differentiating the chungerized builds. Recordings will tell more on Thursday.
Getting back into jazz basses. . . #3 never really settled in after the massive pickup shootout and then the decision to go with the DiMarzio Model J's. . . and then the decision to run 4 wire NJ4SE's. I've been having low output problems with the NJ4SE's on #3. They were sounding thin and had low output. . . I went to solicit help from the pickups and electronics forum and will detail my progress in that thread:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=700616
of importance to pickup development is this. . . while looking for a way to practice soldering on pickups, I decided to take one of the stock SX pickups apart. . . more than Mike at Nordstrand did. At any rate, I figured if I was going to sacrifice a pickup, I might as well document for the greater good.
Wax potted ceramic pickup. . .
chunks of wax removed to reveal taped coils
back side showing the 2 magnets
unwrapping the coils to reveal wire connection to the coil wire. . . looks pretty precarious to me. It's just finger twisted wires that are soldered and then wrapped in the electrical tape. (found out at this point there would be no practicing of pickup soldering on cheap pickups for me. .. at least not on these pickups.
Further unwrapping reveals both leads
further unwrapping shears the delicate coils wires right off of the pickup leads, but reveals the coils
Of particular interest to me is this measurement. . . the pickup coil height. I don't think Mike at Nordstrand disassembled the pickup to this point so he knew the coil was short, but probably didn't get an exact figure. These are .350" tall. My gut feeling is the prototype A pickup is running a shorter coil height than this.
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=700616
of importance to pickup development is this. . . while looking for a way to practice soldering on pickups, I decided to take one of the stock SX pickups apart. . . more than Mike at Nordstrand did. At any rate, I figured if I was going to sacrifice a pickup, I might as well document for the greater good.
Wax potted ceramic pickup. . .
chunks of wax removed to reveal taped coils
back side showing the 2 magnets
unwrapping the coils to reveal wire connection to the coil wire. . . looks pretty precarious to me. It's just finger twisted wires that are soldered and then wrapped in the electrical tape. (found out at this point there would be no practicing of pickup soldering on cheap pickups for me. .. at least not on these pickups.
Further unwrapping reveals both leads
further unwrapping shears the delicate coils wires right off of the pickup leads, but reveals the coils
Of particular interest to me is this measurement. . . the pickup coil height. I don't think Mike at Nordstrand disassembled the pickup to this point so he knew the coil was short, but probably didn't get an exact figure. These are .350" tall. My gut feeling is the prototype A pickup is running a shorter coil height than this.
Lots of things are in motion again. . . Babicz FCH bridges have finally shipped after 4 months. I have ordered 4 units and will test. If they prove useful, these will become an option. I have no clue how I'm going to figure which basses to put them on and which ones stay stock, but I'm looking forward to testing.
4 revisions of the jazz bass prototype pickup are being custom made by Nordstrand. A2.1 will be the same except for the simulated hand wind. A2.2 will be the same but with a slightly shorter magnet, and A2.3 will widen out the coil depth to ~.350" and possibly change wire gauge. The 4th pickup will be the 5 string variant.
The shifts being made now are very subtle because I think the tone is really close already. Just a few minor tweaks and an exploration of the coil depth to see where that leads. I'm almost certain all of these pickups will sound great. It's just a matter of voicing preference. Hopefully one will stand out. If not, I may keep on hand more than 1 pickup configuration to voice match to individual instruments.
Studio session tomorrow. . . this is more a logistical session as opposed to a test session. I choose to document basses so potential buyers can have at least a general reference to the tone of the instrument, so prior to sale, I have to get these recordings. I am, however testing 1 pickup. ..the prototype B jazz pickup that is in the yellow bass (#17) right now. This session will verify to me if the custom p-bass pickup I've settled on translates to a variety of instruments since we are very p-bass heavy in this batch.
Genz Benz Shuttle 9.0 is en route for testing. Hopefully it will do better than the 6.0 12T combo.
NOTE: I am finalizing the current order from Nordstrand. I know a lot of folks are waiting for test data on the jazz bass pickup front, but if interested in the custom p-bass pickup, please let me know. Lead times can be long for custom stuff, and I usually like to keep a stack on hand, but property taxes and the production batch are on my mind, so i'm keeping things lean and mean.
4 revisions of the jazz bass prototype pickup are being custom made by Nordstrand. A2.1 will be the same except for the simulated hand wind. A2.2 will be the same but with a slightly shorter magnet, and A2.3 will widen out the coil depth to ~.350" and possibly change wire gauge. The 4th pickup will be the 5 string variant.
The shifts being made now are very subtle because I think the tone is really close already. Just a few minor tweaks and an exploration of the coil depth to see where that leads. I'm almost certain all of these pickups will sound great. It's just a matter of voicing preference. Hopefully one will stand out. If not, I may keep on hand more than 1 pickup configuration to voice match to individual instruments.
Studio session tomorrow. . . this is more a logistical session as opposed to a test session. I choose to document basses so potential buyers can have at least a general reference to the tone of the instrument, so prior to sale, I have to get these recordings. I am, however testing 1 pickup. ..the prototype B jazz pickup that is in the yellow bass (#17) right now. This session will verify to me if the custom p-bass pickup I've settled on translates to a variety of instruments since we are very p-bass heavy in this batch.
Genz Benz Shuttle 9.0 is en route for testing. Hopefully it will do better than the 6.0 12T combo.
NOTE: I am finalizing the current order from Nordstrand. I know a lot of folks are waiting for test data on the jazz bass pickup front, but if interested in the custom p-bass pickup, please let me know. Lead times can be long for custom stuff, and I usually like to keep a stack on hand, but property taxes and the production batch are on my mind, so i'm keeping things lean and mean.
I thought it was kindof funny loading in to go to the studio. . . 8 basses to track.
Chunger on console duty for drum tracking. . . managed to grab a few shots of the action. We were able to grab 3 new drum tracks. Something old-school fingerstyle. . . something slappy, and something rockin'. Managed to get our butts kicked. Playing this stuff is harder than it seems. Those old-school players really had their feels dialed in.
After drum tracking, we started laying down bass tracks. . . lots of basses to get through.
I haven't had a chance to mix any of the tracks down, but the microscope of the studio really reveals a lot and really makes the great basses in the batch stand out.
No studio session is without difficulties, and this time it was setups again that caused me grief. I just had a fairly major climate shift from really warm summer weather to cooler, more humid fall. To make matters worse, in the middle of the recent hot spell we had, I ran A/C in the house which de-humidified the basses. When basses are running to a high level of tune, small shifts can upset the delicate balance especially on flexy-flier traditional type necks like these. At any rate, can't hide the buzz in the studio. After these sessions it seems I start to creep my actions higher. In the studio environment, you can't get away with excessive noise. Better to run things a bit on the higher side, and I think I may need to back off the speed-demon setups a bit even though they're fun when you're sitting in your living room. It is interesting though how some necks (even PLEK'd ones) are better than others and can sustain really low setups while running clean. I used to think Sadowsky's standard setups were more on the high side for a premium bass, but am starting to understand the move towards more "safety margin" in setups after session like today. The player, the song, the pickups response, and the end tone all play a significant role in the optimal setup for an instrument. I should probably re-think .085-.080. #6, #4, #14, and #11 I believe are the only ones I've seen in this batch that can run that kind of height or lower cleanly. I did not get #16 in studio so I don't know about that one. I will most definitely have PLEK settings I will change in the next batch. For the production batch, I'm set now pretty set on going to 3 piece laminated quarter sawn necks to reduce movement from environmental changes . . . I'm also seriously contemplating graphite rods for the same reason even though it will drive the cost up a bit.
Now, I think what I'm going to do is just sit with one bass at a time every night and tweak the setup so that over time, all of the instruments remain tuned up.
Chunger on console duty for drum tracking. . . managed to grab a few shots of the action. We were able to grab 3 new drum tracks. Something old-school fingerstyle. . . something slappy, and something rockin'. Managed to get our butts kicked. Playing this stuff is harder than it seems. Those old-school players really had their feels dialed in.
After drum tracking, we started laying down bass tracks. . . lots of basses to get through.
I haven't had a chance to mix any of the tracks down, but the microscope of the studio really reveals a lot and really makes the great basses in the batch stand out.
No studio session is without difficulties, and this time it was setups again that caused me grief. I just had a fairly major climate shift from really warm summer weather to cooler, more humid fall. To make matters worse, in the middle of the recent hot spell we had, I ran A/C in the house which de-humidified the basses. When basses are running to a high level of tune, small shifts can upset the delicate balance especially on flexy-flier traditional type necks like these. At any rate, can't hide the buzz in the studio. After these sessions it seems I start to creep my actions higher. In the studio environment, you can't get away with excessive noise. Better to run things a bit on the higher side, and I think I may need to back off the speed-demon setups a bit even though they're fun when you're sitting in your living room. It is interesting though how some necks (even PLEK'd ones) are better than others and can sustain really low setups while running clean. I used to think Sadowsky's standard setups were more on the high side for a premium bass, but am starting to understand the move towards more "safety margin" in setups after session like today. The player, the song, the pickups response, and the end tone all play a significant role in the optimal setup for an instrument. I should probably re-think .085-.080. #6, #4, #14, and #11 I believe are the only ones I've seen in this batch that can run that kind of height or lower cleanly. I did not get #16 in studio so I don't know about that one. I will most definitely have PLEK settings I will change in the next batch. For the production batch, I'm set now pretty set on going to 3 piece laminated quarter sawn necks to reduce movement from environmental changes . . . I'm also seriously contemplating graphite rods for the same reason even though it will drive the cost up a bit.
Now, I think what I'm going to do is just sit with one bass at a time every night and tweak the setup so that over time, all of the instruments remain tuned up.
I really think the graphite rods will be a good idea. I plan on getting necks with them in the majority of my future bass purchases.
Edit: Also, I was looking on Lakland's website. You know what the biggest difference between their skyline P bass and their USA P bass is? Quartersawn necks with Graphite rods...Your batch will be competing with USA Laklands!
My money's on the cheap Chinese ones.
Edit: Also, I was looking on Lakland's website. You know what the biggest difference between their skyline P bass and their USA P bass is? Quartersawn necks with Graphite rods...Your batch will be competing with USA Laklands!
My money's on the cheap Chinese ones.
It is interesting though how some necks (even PLEK'd ones) are better than others and can sustain really low setups while running clean.
Ain't it, though...
The player, the song, the pickups response, and the end tone all play a significant role in the optimal setup for an instrument.
Yes, indeedy.
I'm also seriously contemplating graphite rods for the same reason even though it will drive the cost up a bit.
I hope you can convince people that it's worth it, to pay for the stability, seriously.
How big is Puffin, now?
Ain't it, though...
The player, the song, the pickups response, and the end tone all play a significant role in the optimal setup for an instrument.
Yes, indeedy.
I'm also seriously contemplating graphite rods for the same reason even though it will drive the cost up a bit.
I hope you can convince people that it's worth it, to pay for the stability, seriously.
How big is Puffin, now?
OK. . . studio samples. . . ready, set, go:
We tracked drums for 3 new test samples and on input and mixdown, we did whatever the heck we wanted to the drum tracks (EQ, compression, reverbs, plates, etc.). The bass signal went like this:
bass --> Great River preamp --> MCI console --> Apogee Rosetta A/D converter --> RME i/o module --> Logic 9
No EQ or compression was applied to the bass track up to the final mix. After mixing, compression and limiting were applied to the mixed stereo track for quick and dirty mastering to bring the levels up to a "normal" album level. Mixes were done analog through the MCI console.
Songs:
Aint No Mountain High Enough --> recorded volume on full and tone knob dialed down to taste on each bass. We decided to record like we would for a real session instead of just recording wide open. I did put in that ridiculous orange tone cap after all. Might as well use it once in a while.
Sweet Emotion (Aerosmith) --> vol up, tone wide open
The Dancer (Stanly Clarke) --> vol up, tone wide open
Bass #17 (standard grade)
Prototype B jazz bass pickups Dunlop SS medium gauge strings
Aint No Mountain High Enough
sweet emotion
The Dancer
Bass 14 (premium grade)
"chunger" custom p-bass pickup, DR lo-riders medium gauge
Aint No Mountain High Enough
Sweet Emotion
The Dancer
Bass 13 (standard grade)
"chunger" custom p-bass pickup, Dunlop SS medium gauge
Aint No Mountain High Enough
Sweet Emotion
The Dancer
Bass 12 (professional grade)
"chunger" p-bass pickup, Dunlop SS medium gauge
Aint No Mountain High Enough
Sweet Emotion
The Dancer
Bass 11 (premium grade)
"chunger" custom p-bass pickup/Nordstrand NJ4SE, Dunlop SS medium gauge
Aint No Mountain High Enough
Sweet Emotion
The Dancer
Bass 10 (standard grade)
Nordstrand NPJ4SE, Dunlop SS Medium Gauge
Aint No Mountain High Enough
Sweet Emotion
The Dancer
Bass 7 (professional grade)
hand leveled frets, "chunger" custom p-bass pickup, Dunlop SS medium gauge
Ain't No Mountain High Enough
Sweet Emotion
The Dancer
And what test isn't complete without good 'ole #3. . . new NJ4SE's that actually work this time (I hacked 4 wires into the stock NJ4SE pup to make the push/pull push/pull push/pull configuration work). This bass is now running DR Lo-riders in medium gauge
Ain't No Mountian High Enough
Sweet Emotion
The Dancer
At this point, I've extracted all the data I need from these basses, and I'll have to focus in on trying to sell a few to keep the project moving forward. I guess now I find out whether or not people think these mods are of good value when compared with the other options on the market. Time to call up some more bass teachers and spread the word! We'll see how many of these actually make it through to "the children".
We tracked drums for 3 new test samples and on input and mixdown, we did whatever the heck we wanted to the drum tracks (EQ, compression, reverbs, plates, etc.). The bass signal went like this:
bass --> Great River preamp --> MCI console --> Apogee Rosetta A/D converter --> RME i/o module --> Logic 9
No EQ or compression was applied to the bass track up to the final mix. After mixing, compression and limiting were applied to the mixed stereo track for quick and dirty mastering to bring the levels up to a "normal" album level. Mixes were done analog through the MCI console.
Songs:
Aint No Mountain High Enough --> recorded volume on full and tone knob dialed down to taste on each bass. We decided to record like we would for a real session instead of just recording wide open. I did put in that ridiculous orange tone cap after all. Might as well use it once in a while.
Sweet Emotion (Aerosmith) --> vol up, tone wide open
The Dancer (Stanly Clarke) --> vol up, tone wide open
Bass #17 (standard grade)
Prototype B jazz bass pickups Dunlop SS medium gauge strings
Aint No Mountain High Enough
sweet emotion
The Dancer
Bass 14 (premium grade)
"chunger" custom p-bass pickup, DR lo-riders medium gauge
Aint No Mountain High Enough
Sweet Emotion
The Dancer
Bass 13 (standard grade)
"chunger" custom p-bass pickup, Dunlop SS medium gauge
Aint No Mountain High Enough
Sweet Emotion
The Dancer
Bass 12 (professional grade)
"chunger" p-bass pickup, Dunlop SS medium gauge
Aint No Mountain High Enough
Sweet Emotion
The Dancer
Bass 11 (premium grade)
"chunger" custom p-bass pickup/Nordstrand NJ4SE, Dunlop SS medium gauge
Aint No Mountain High Enough
Sweet Emotion
The Dancer
Bass 10 (standard grade)
Nordstrand NPJ4SE, Dunlop SS Medium Gauge
Aint No Mountain High Enough
Sweet Emotion
The Dancer
Bass 7 (professional grade)
hand leveled frets, "chunger" custom p-bass pickup, Dunlop SS medium gauge
Ain't No Mountain High Enough
Sweet Emotion
The Dancer
And what test isn't complete without good 'ole #3. . . new NJ4SE's that actually work this time (I hacked 4 wires into the stock NJ4SE pup to make the push/pull push/pull push/pull configuration work). This bass is now running DR Lo-riders in medium gauge
Ain't No Mountian High Enough
Sweet Emotion
The Dancer
At this point, I've extracted all the data I need from these basses, and I'll have to focus in on trying to sell a few to keep the project moving forward. I guess now I find out whether or not people think these mods are of good value when compared with the other options on the market. Time to call up some more bass teachers and spread the word! We'll see how many of these actually make it through to "the children".
Man as much as I prefer P basses over Js I have to admit #3 still sounds AMAZING.
Out of the Ps, I liked 12 the best and 11 the best out of the P/Js. 3 continues to be the king of J basses.
My ear must not be that critical though because the differences between each were extremely subtle and sometimes non-existent (but that could be a good thing too). Biggest difference was obviously P vs J. The P/J sounds more like a P to me than a J.
I think your setups were quite successful in the recorded sound department.
Out of the Ps, I liked 12 the best and 11 the best out of the P/Js. 3 continues to be the king of J basses.
My ear must not be that critical though because the differences between each were extremely subtle and sometimes non-existent (but that could be a good thing too). Biggest difference was obviously P vs J. The P/J sounds more like a P to me than a J.
I think your setups were quite successful in the recorded sound department.
I have to say I am partial to #11. The bottom end has a "round grunt" to it that really gets me a happy! I also think the setup contributed to the very clean sound you got on those tracks. If it was me, I would shoot for that sound.
I agree. I picked the NJ4SE as the best pickup on an SX in a previous shootout (with stock SX second). And I picked it again. At first it seems not as "in your face" as the others, but then you realize there is a refined and subtle "edge" to the tone that is clearly evident as these studio tracks move on. And that amazingly makes the really low notes come alive!
Of course I'm not real sure what your "push/pull" configuration settings were.
The main question in my mind would be does the NJ5SE (or whatever it would be) have that subtle refinement carry over from the 4 string version or is it completely different?
But I'm convinced more than ever now that the NJ4SE is THE pickup of choice for SX jazz 4 string upgrade! But that's just my opinion.
Every piece of wood sounds different, and that causes every bass to be voiced different. #3 is an extraordinary bass to begin with. . .then. . . If you were to take a battery of 6 good to premium pickups, record all of them in the same bass, gig the top 2 choices for a while, and then tweak the electronics to subtly match, well. . . that's what happened here. The tone is dialed IMO, but "optimum" tone is very subjective, and a large subset of people watching this thread still like the stock NJ4 better than the rest on #3. . . they like it better than the bone stock NJ4SE anyways.
I feel that with the series/parallel mod, the SE's reclaim enough tonal flexibility (treble extension when needed) to keep as an option. It is certainly not for everyone though. Good and refined as the SE's are, they do not punch through like the stock SX pups do. That's why I went looking in different directions to come up with a custom single coil that gets back the SX growl and punch without the "SX effect". . .and I am close. If you are not properly briefed on the push/pull knob operation, you can get really lost trying to figure out what's going on with the controls. For the recording, we recorded in baseline configuration (stock NJ4SE sound). . . both pickups were internally running in series and globally, the bass was running parallel (standard jazz bass mode).
Interesting tonal variations across the board. These are my opinions and don't have any factual information or something you could use for data... just my $0.02
#14 sounded very "all around", as it would just fit into a live setting nicely. I imagined it with very low action.
#13 was just "raw", lots of mids on this one. The slap on this one stood out to me for some reason. It's what I would want (if i slapped). I imagined this one with a higher action. **Daydreams of this bass played with a pick in a punk band**
#12 real nice tone. I always think maple necks are sticky, so that's what I pictured in my head. This one just sounded decent to me, but what was that odd buzzing overtones in the chords of "The dancer"... low low action? Maybe it's just a little bassier than the others
#7 reminded me of #13 in that I felt it had lots of nice mids... low mids in fact. I imagine this one with very low action as well... I like this one on the "ain't no mountain" finger style, but not so much on the other tracks.
Overall, on the P's #14 was favorite. I don't know if me looking at the picture of it just made me want to play it, or that little bit of buzz on "sweet emotion" called out my name.... Or if the bass tone on "ain't no mountain" made my hips thrust... or if the little chords on "the dancer" made me smile.
As with instruments, everybody has a different idea of what feels and sounds right to them... but #14 hit me.... off to run home to play on my (reverse) P!!
#14 sounded very "all around", as it would just fit into a live setting nicely. I imagined it with very low action.
#13 was just "raw", lots of mids on this one. The slap on this one stood out to me for some reason. It's what I would want (if i slapped). I imagined this one with a higher action. **Daydreams of this bass played with a pick in a punk band**
#12 real nice tone. I always think maple necks are sticky, so that's what I pictured in my head. This one just sounded decent to me, but what was that odd buzzing overtones in the chords of "The dancer"... low low action? Maybe it's just a little bassier than the others
#7 reminded me of #13 in that I felt it had lots of nice mids... low mids in fact. I imagine this one with very low action as well... I like this one on the "ain't no mountain" finger style, but not so much on the other tracks.
Overall, on the P's #14 was favorite. I don't know if me looking at the picture of it just made me want to play it, or that little bit of buzz on "sweet emotion" called out my name.... Or if the bass tone on "ain't no mountain" made my hips thrust... or if the little chords on "the dancer" made me smile.
As with instruments, everybody has a different idea of what feels and sounds right to them... but #14 hit me.... off to run home to play on my (reverse) P!!
Not much to report lately. . . just fielding sporadic interest and inquiries about a few of the basses.
Several standard grade instruments will be placed with students hopefully in the next month. . . a couple more professional friends have inquired about "gig testing" some of the other instruments after listening to sound clips. Seasonal change will require adjustment of all instruments again.
By some freak coincidence, I have secured display space at NAMM in Anaheim mid January. After speaking with my factory rep, it seems it will be possible to fast-track a few test samples prior to the full production batch, so jazz-bass pickup development will proceed in earnest as soon as the next 3 prototypes arrive from Nordstrand. Hopefully those Babicz bridges will also come in soon as promised.
And, of course if all goes well, I'll post up development news about the upcoming new line sooner than I had anticipated.
I'll probably spec the 1st run to look just like #17 but maybe with a color change from Vintage Cream to Seafoam Green or Surf Green.
Several standard grade instruments will be placed with students hopefully in the next month. . . a couple more professional friends have inquired about "gig testing" some of the other instruments after listening to sound clips. Seasonal change will require adjustment of all instruments again.
By some freak coincidence, I have secured display space at NAMM in Anaheim mid January. After speaking with my factory rep, it seems it will be possible to fast-track a few test samples prior to the full production batch, so jazz-bass pickup development will proceed in earnest as soon as the next 3 prototypes arrive from Nordstrand. Hopefully those Babicz bridges will also come in soon as promised.
And, of course if all goes well, I'll post up development news about the upcoming new line sooner than I had anticipated.
I'll probably spec the 1st run to look just like #17 but maybe with a color change from Vintage Cream to Seafoam Green or Surf Green.
Nah, I have a LPB Jazz already; bring on the green P-basses with rosewood fingerboards!!Better yet, Lake Placid Blue!
I have the current MIM Fender Standard Jazz Bass in LPB. It looks great.LPB is my favorite finish for Fender basses and I never see it in stores
Here it is, slightly modded:
Here it is in the catalog:
Invalid Link Removed
- Status
