Bassists who learned without the metronome

[scrubhelmet]

When I was trying to learn how to play the bass, I just watched the covers and live videos of a few bassists (Buddy Zabala, Flea, Tony Kanal, Stuart Zender) and their bands and learn their songs. I also tried to learn other songs as soon as people knew I was playing bass and hire me up for their band. I also have a bit of music theory knowledge when I was learning the guitar, and I think it helped with improvisation and composing. Recently I'm also trying to learn jazz bass and have read books such as Ed Friedland's Building Walking Bass Lines.

However, the idea of practicing with a metronome only came up recently to me because I'd read it in forums such as this. So in a way I don't know how to utilize it. But I think it didn't affect my bass playing negatively. I know that bassists in general are in demand so I won't count this as an evidence of me being able to play properly; but on the other hand, there are several instances when I'd play with a drummer and lock in with them, and both of us would want to play with each other again due to the mutually good experience.

Anyway, so are there other bassists here who had the same lack of knowledge about the metronome as me? And if you went from not using the metronome to using it, what are the improvements that you felt?

EDIT: In lieu of the metronome, I think that I just have a feel for rhythm and groove, to the point that it makes me tap my foot or dance while playing.

 

[hieronymous]

When I was trying to learn how to play the bass, I just watched the covers and live videos of a few bassists (Buddy Zabala, Flea, Tony Kanal, Stuart Zender) and their bands and learn their songs. I also tried to learn other songs as soon as people knew I was playing bass and hire me up for their band. I also have a bit of music theory knowledge when I was learning the guitar, and I think it helped with improvisation and composing. Recently I'm also trying to learn jazz bass and have read books such as Ed Friedland's Building Walking Bass Lines.

However, the idea of practicing with a metronome only came up recently to me because I'd read it in forums such as this. So in a way I don't know how to utilize it. But I think it didn't affect my bass playing negatively. I know that bassists in general are in demand so I won't count this as an evidence of me being able to play properly; but on the other hand, there are several instances when I'd play with a drummer and lock in with them, and both of us would want to play with each other again due to the mutually good experience.

Anyway, so are there other bassists here who had the same lack of knowledge about the metronome as me? And if you went from not using the metronome to using it, what are the improvements that you felt?

Go ahead and practice with a metronome. I like trying to play the bass lines of the band I'm in by myself, with a metronome. If I can't do that, then maybe I have something to work on. It's not an absolute, but it can't help but help?!! I will admit, I can be kind of jerk asserting the time as I feel it. But that's not out of my control - it's another tool in the tool belt. Imagine if you didn't have that confidence in metronome time?

 

[scrubhelmet]

Go ahead and practice with a metronome. I like trying to play the bass lines of the band I'm in by myself, with a metronome. If I can't do that, then maybe I have something to work on. It's not an absolute, but it can't help but help?!! I will admit, I can be kind of jerk asserting the time as I feel it. But that's not out of my control - it's another tool in the tool belt. Imagine if you didn't have that confidence in metronome time?

There's nothing bad that can come up with trying something, so maybe I'll search how to use it the next time I practice with my bass.

However I was just thinking that maybe it would mess up with my internal sense of rhythm, because there might be too much for me to think about when playing with a metronome? Also I was thinking of the saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Anyway, yeah I'll just try it.

 

[silky smoove]

As a studio owner and operator I can say this: The number of people that come in and say they can play to a metronome versus ones who can ACTUALLY play to a metronome is pretty staggering. There's more to just playing in time with a metronome. Many can't do that effectively, but the real ones are those who come in, play to a click and can still maintain an excellent time feel within the confines of a metronomic grid. That said, many many many players come in and say "I can play to a click" and then simply can't. I had one young guitarist tell me "bro, your click keeps slowing down!" as he consistently sped up across every take.

Here's an exercise you can try: Take a bassline and play it solo to a metronome with no other accompaniment. Can you play it consistently in time? Can you play it where every note is super tight to the click? Can you do that on quarters? What about half? What about whole notes? Now if you've got that, try to play with time feel against the click. Can you play consistently behind the beat without losing the click? What about a little on top of the beat? Playing with a drummer is easy. By comparison a metronome is merciless and does not deviate. It doesn't care about feelings or swing or anything but being rigid. It's a cruel taskmaster, but a valuable one to learn to play to.

 

[pfschim]

As a studio owner and operator I can say this: The number of people that come in and say they can play to a metronome versus ones who can ACTUALLY play to a metronome is pretty staggering. There's more to just playing in time with a metronome. Many can't do that effectively, but the real ones are those who come in, play to a click and can still maintain an excellent time feel within the confines of a metronomic grid. That said, many many many players come in and say "I can play to a click" and then simply can't. I had one young guitarist tell me "bro, your click keeps slowing down!" as he consistently sped up across every take.

Here's an exercise you can try: Take a bassline and play it solo to a metronome with no other accompaniment. Can you play it consistently in time? Can you play it where every note is super tight to the click? Can you do that on quarters? What about half? What about whole notes? Now if you've got that, try to play with time feel against the click. Can you play consistently behind the beat without losing the click? What about a little on top of the beat? Playing with a drummer is easy. By comparison a metronome is merciless and does not deviate. It doesn't care about feelings or swing or anything but being rigid. It's a cruel taskmaster, but a valuable one to learn to play to.

all of what Silky said, and adding the Ed Friedland time challenge of playing a part with a programmable metronome/click/drum machine, and then have the click drop out for a bar while you keep playing the part and see if you are still on it when the click/metronome/drum machine comes back. Try this with a bar dropping out, then maybe 2 bars, then 3 or 4. Also try it a many different tempos. Can really be an eye opener.

good luck OP, it never hurts to add to your skills!

 

[scrubhelmet]

The number of people that come in and say they can play to a metronome versus ones who can ACTUALLY play to a metronome is pretty staggering. There's more to just playing in time with a metronome.

Thanks for sharing your experience! I agree with the metronome being a perfect time-keeper.

However, I suddenly had another realization: if I can play songs from the first to the last minute correctly, without my bandmates or the recording person correcting me, what improvement would it give when I practice with a metronome?

 

[silky smoove]

Thanks for sharing your experience! I agree with the metronome being a perfect time-keeper.

However, I suddenly had another realization: if I can play songs from the first to the last minute correctly, without my bandmates or the recording person correcting me, what improvement would it give when I practice with a metronome?

Your perception of time and a metronome’s accurate representation of it are often not the same thing. Practicing to a metronome reinforces timing accuracy in a way that you can’t on your own. It’s also very difficult to practice time feel without a rhythmic reference, and there’s no better tool for this job than a metronome.

You seem intent on finding reasons not to use a metronome. A healthier approach is to understand the reasons it’s beneficial and then decide where you want to spend your time.

 

[Wasnex]

I like the time and feel to be stable. Lot's of people will make comments like, "Music should breath." Basically they don't like the time and feel to be rock solid. I find this confounding .

I sometime practice with a metronome, but it's fairly rare at this point. More precisely I use a Tame RW200 Rhythm Watch, which has subdivisions.

I also enjoy playing with a drummer who plays well with a click. As @silky smoove has mentioned, some people think they play well with a click, but they don't. IME many of these people have bad time, so I don't enjoy playing with them regardless of whether they use a click or not. But in some instances it's less cringey if there is no click.

Situations tend to vary, and it is sometimes necessary to adjust/compensate .

There are definitely appropriate times when the tempo and feel should vary. Examples:

1. Sometimes music is rubato.
2. A good singer or soloist will leverage something called back phrasing, which involves intentionally stretching or compressing time. Done well it can be very musical.
3. Interpretation of the triplet and the internal symmetry of beat patterns can vary significantly.
4. There is often and intentional rhythmic tension between two instruments; for example bass and drums. For time to be steady, one must push while the other pulls. Also they need to agree on the degree of tension or the tempo will either speed up or slow down. A name for this rhythmic tension is "the pocket."

 

[djmay]

I like the time and feel to be stable. Lot's of people will make comments like, "Music should breath." Basically they don't like the time and feel to be rock solid. I find this confounding .

I sometime practice with a metronome, but it's fairly rare at this point. More precisely I use a Tame RW200 Rhythm Watch, which has subdivisions.

I also enjoy playing with a drummer who plays well with a click. As @silky smoove has mentioned, some people think they play well with a click, but they don't. IME many of these people have bad time, so I don't enjoy playing with them regardless of whether they use a click or not. But in some instances it's less cringey if there is no click.

Situations tend to vary, and it is sometimes necessary to adjust/compensate .

There are definitely appropriate times when the tempo and feel should vary. Examples:

1. Sometimes music is rubato.
2. A good singer or soloist will leverage something called back phrasing, which involves intentionally stretching or compressing time. Done well it can be very musical.
3. Interpretation of the triplet and the internal symmetry of beat patterns can vary significantly.
4. There is often and intentional rhythmic tension between two instruments; for example bass and drums. For time to be steady, one must push while the other pulls. Also they need to agree on the degree of tension or the tempo will either speed up or slow down. A name for this rhythmic tension is "the pocket."

Agreed. The four points above work because the musicians CAN play with a metronome or click. For those that cannot, it sounds sloppy.

 

[Shenron]

When I was trying to learn how to play the bass, I just watched the covers and live videos of a few bassists (Buddy Zabala, Flea, Tony Kanal, Stuart Zender) and their bands and learn their songs. I also tried to learn other songs as soon as people knew I was playing bass and hire me up for their band. I also have a bit of music theory knowledge when I was learning the guitar, and I think it helped with improvisation and composing. Recently I'm also trying to learn jazz bass and have read books such as Ed Friedland's Building Walking Bass Lines.

However, the idea of practicing with a metronome only came up recently to me because I'd read it in forums such as this. So in a way I don't know how to utilize it. But I think it didn't affect my bass playing negatively. I know that bassists in general are in demand so I won't count this as an evidence of me being able to play properly; but on the other hand, there are several instances when I'd play with a drummer and lock in with them, and both of us would want to play with each other again due to the mutually good experience.

Anyway, so are there other bassists here who had the same lack of knowledge about the metronome as me? And if you went from not using the metronome to using it, what are the improvements that you felt?

EDIT: In lieu of the metronome, I think that I just have a feel for rhythm and groove, to the point that it makes me tap my foot or dance while playing.

I don't remember exactly but I kind of think I've been using a metronome since the beginning of learning guitar more than 30 years ago (I didn't have one of my own at first, but I immediately went to lessons after buying my first guitar, and I remember using my teacher's metronome during class).

Generally speaking, I always had a good sense of timing to start with, but the metronome was useful for me for at least the following:

- improving my speed consistency over a long time (it's easy to play in time, but without a reference after 2-3 minutes everyone probably drifts off a bit from the original tempo)
- learning odd time divisions (triplets, quintuplets, sextuplets, septuplets)
- learning accents on different positions

On the bass, I have used the metronome specifically in some periods:

- quite at the beginning, when I was transitioning from playing with one finger to alternating two fingers (because I was not consistent with the timing of the second finger)
- every now and then with some specific grooves, when I get the feeling that I am being slightly late or slightly early

That said, the metronome is more often overrated than underrated. A lot of people say to use the metronome all the time, which is wrong... use the metronome when the focus of your current exercise is to improve timing. When your focus is somewhere else, the metronome can become an obstacle instead of helping you out.

 

[jj.833]

I use metronome with my students pretty often, mostly in these situations:

1) studen't can't play a riff cleanly, because he's trying to learn it at the original speed. This happens very often, almost always. Solution:
1a) find the original tempo and write it down, let's say it's 120
1b) set the metronome to say 50 and learn the riff (this step takes ca 80% of the time spent on the riff)
1c) when you can do it at least 3x in a row, raise the tempo to 60
1d) etc. till the original tempo.

2) student is fluent in playing in metronome, but his rhythm is too strict and dead, because he plays all notes at the same volume. Solution:
2a) show the student what the metre is and how the natural accents are dealt with.
2b) play with metronome beating on 2nd and 4th beat only (example: song in BPM 100 -> metronome BPM 50)

3) student can't hold the tempo on his own, hence is not helping the band to have a steady rhythm. Solution:
3a) listen to the tempo for a while, then turn the metronome off
3b) play the etude
3c) listen to the tempo again and compare, whether you sped up.

There's much more you can know about the tempo, and it is always rewarding to learn more!

 

[oldcatfish]

all of what Silky said, and adding the Ed Friedland time challenge of playing a part with a programmable metronome/click/drum machine, and then have the click drop out for a bar while you keep playing the part and see if you are still on it when the click/metronome/drum machine comes back. Try this with a bar dropping out, then maybe 2 bars, then 3 or 4. Also try it a many different tempos. Can really be an eye opener.

good luck OP, it never hurts to add to your skills!

When I first started playing drums, I thought that my timing was pretty good. After all, I already was gigging regularly both as a bass player and a lead guitar player. Then I tried the above metronome exercise where it drops out. The longer that it dropped out, the more inconsistent my timing actually was. The more that I practiced that exercise, the better my timing became….and not just when playing drums.

You don’t have to use a metronome….but it will definitely level up your playing.

 

[Sbassman Scratch]

I used a metronome once. It kept speeding up and slowing down

 

[Lobster11]

It seems to me that if, as you say, you have a good internal clock and don't have trouble locking in with a drummer, there isn't likely much to be gained by starting to practice with a metronome. However, if sometime in the future you want to play music that is more rhythmically complex than whatever you're playing now, or that requires you to be faster than you are now, a metronome might be a useful tool.

 

[mambo4]

The purpose of a metronome is to verify consistency in tempo. The remaining aspects of “good time“ come from elsewhere. This causes some people confusion.

There are only two situations I’ve ever used a metronome seriously. The first was morning drills: with the major scale in all keys, eighth notes I spent a year in college getting up early and running these scales, using the speed at which I could be consistent. Slowly over the months that speed limit crept up, so it was rather rewarding. The second was preparing for gigs: I had every song we played charted, and the rough BPM noted. I would run through the chart with just me and the metronome – not listening to music, not listening to backing tracks, just my bass and the click. I did this to make my partner as bulletproof as possible, so that mistakes by others wouldn’t throw me off.

It can be a very surprising exercise for someone who is not used to playing with a metronome. Your shortcomings will be exposed.

For fun, I will also set it to beat on two and four, like a standard snare hit . Good for learning to build a pocket.

 

[HolmeBass]

When I was trying to learn how to play the bass, I just watched the covers and live videos of a few bassists (Buddy Zabala, Flea, Tony Kanal, Stuart Zender) and their bands and learn their songs. I also tried to learn other songs as soon as people knew I was playing bass and hire me up for their band. I also have a bit of music theory knowledge when I was learning the guitar, and I think it helped with improvisation and composing. Recently I'm also trying to learn jazz bass and have read books such as Ed Friedland's Building Walking Bass Lines.

However, the idea of practicing with a metronome only came up recently to me because I'd read it in forums such as this. So in a way I don't know how to utilize it. But I think it didn't affect my bass playing negatively. I know that bassists in general are in demand so I won't count this as an evidence of me being able to play properly; but on the other hand, there are several instances when I'd play with a drummer and lock in with them, and both of us would want to play with each other again due to the mutually good experience.

Anyway, so are there other bassists here who had the same lack of knowledge about the metronome as me? And if you went from not using the metronome to using it, what are the improvements that you felt?

EDIT: In lieu of the metronome, I think that I just have a feel for rhythm and groove, to the point that it makes me tap my foot or dance while playing.

You might enjoy metronome work.

 

[JonathanPDX]

There's a big difference between having good time in a live setting where you can adjust tempo with other musicians, and having good time locked into a static tempo that will never waver. As others have said, a lot of dudes with "good time" struggle mightily in the studio because they never developed this skill.

Sure, if you jam with your local drummer and you speed up or slow down a few BPM he's gonna say you're great. If you play with Dennis Chambers and he goes off into some heavy metric modulation for two bars he is not going to want you to follow him, he'll expect you be in exactly the same place when he comes back.

If you cannot stay 100% consistent and perfect regardless of what nonsense is going on around you then your time isn't good at all, you're just used to playing with other musicians who don't expect perfect time or don't have it themselves.

The metronome won't teach you what good time feels like. It will hold you accountable in regards to your own sense of good time. There are metronome exercises that will challenge even those with truly great time. Victor Wooten teaches some of them at clinics and he once called me up, since we know each other, to demonstrate one of his really challenging exercises. I failed at the end and we all had a laugh, so I handed him my bass and asked him to do it too. He failed at the end too, though he did a lot better than I did! The point was never to pass or fail, but to discover the line of what you are capable of and work on pushing that to be as perfect as possible.

 

[darkwasthenight]

The good news is playing to a metronome won't 'damage' your sense of time. It might be temporarily embarrassing if it shows that your timekeeping isn't quite as squeaky accurate as you thought when listening back, but that's the point of it. I'm pretty good with studio click these days but not perfect, especially if there are intentional tempo drifts on the track. I find that I can lose track of whether I should be focusing on the click or the drums for that section of the song.

My drummer is luckily fantastic at it and can push or pull against a click as much as he wants. Our last project we played to track but he was the only one with click in his monitoring and we worked to him - he was often triggering multiple track cues within a song and then bringing us to speed without it being obvious. We did exactly one show with click all round and hated every second of it because of how much click drift there was compared to listening to the tracks alone.

 

[JohnnyBottom]

I 'think' I got a lot of my 'natural' time from playing in orchestras thru high school. real music.
metronomes are great for gauging exercise speed and challenging oneself.
I was surprised on a call gig, playing a duo and the guitar player activates rthym loops.
Sticking with that seemed a challenge at the time, but confirmed i can do it,
especially since the guitar player is human and breathes. Really gives the bass no room for error,
and great practice at recovering.

 

[dth101]

I started with music in 2nd grade on PIano and then Trombone in 3rd grade (I think, could have been 4th). I’ve always played to a metronome when working on a specific technique or part. I use it more for warms ups and technique practice now. If I’m working on lines, I usually use a drum loop. I saw a video of Carol Kaye and how she plays against her metronome so it’s “grooving”. I can’t make that work in my head.