Battle of the B-Strings!

[bassrique]

and have a Dinger SJ5 ordered

Dingwall is making a Super Jazz 5? I was at the DW site yesterday and saw no such bass. This is good.

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Alaska Bass,

What about a Steinberger type 5 that doesn't have a nut ["zero fret"]?

 

[Chasarms]

I'm not being sarcastic, but I don't understand your comment, please clarify what you mean.

Many five string basses that I have owned and played do not have a B string that matches the other strings. I don't fully claim understand why, but it their nature.

For the purpose of illustration, imagine a keyboard that when you hit the Eb, the sample changes.

 

[Alaska Bass]

I said nothing about tension. I understand that a given string at a given length must be at a given tension to produce a desired putch. But physical tension does not fully and solely equate to the "feel" of the string under your fingers. The overall rigidity of the structure certainly will impact the the "feel" of the B string (as well as the others to a lesser degree).

When you pluck a steel string, the instrument will deflect to some extent. The bass' resistance to this deflection absolutely impacts the feel of the string. Along with tone, sustain, etc.

I disagree.

Feel Intransitive Verb To receive or be able to receive a tactile sensation.

Feel only involves the actual movements or lack thereof in a string on the instrument. This is much different than sustain, playability, etc.

String tension and mass along with scale length are the only tactile factors in the equation. The minor (less than 1/1000th of an inch deflection (more compression actually) will not be noticeably to even the most sensitive of hands. String tension will affect how hard the required pressure is to fret. String mass will affect the resistance to movement both by initial finger (or pick) force and following all the way through the final sustain, as well as how hard the required pressure is to fret. Scale length to a lesser degree will also affect the overall movement of the string, mainly being noticed on the initial finger (or pick) movement and in string bending and aggressive popping exercises.

I will say that the instrument's resistance to deflection ( i.e. harder wood, more aligned grain patterns, stiffeners, etc.) will affect the sustain of the string, but not the feel.

As an example, a bass guitar string of any specifications, will have the same feel whether it is attached to a steel track from the railroad, or a piece of wood out of the back yard, PROVIDED, the same string is used for both examples, the scale length is the same for both attachments, and the tension is the same.

HOWEVER, the tone qualities, as well as the sustain qualities will be drastically different. BTW, the sustain on the steel track would be phenomenally better, but who wants an all steel bass? They're heavy enough without all that to deal with.

 

[BurningSkies]

Dingwall is making a Super Jazz 5? I was at the DW site yesterday and saw no such bass. This is good.

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Look for it to be unveiled at Winter NAMM. Its been in the works for over a year and the 'final' tweaks are happening now.

 

[Alaska Bass]

Many five string basses that I have owned and played do not have a B string that matches the other strings. I don't fully claim understand why, but it their nature.

For the purpose of illustration, imagine a keyboard that when you hit the Eb, the sample changes.

I believe what you have experienced is due to an improperly matched string selection. For example, with D'Addario XL super longs (the only manufacturer that openly posts string mass for all it's product), a 5 string will include the following

gauge mass
.045 @ .00037240 lb. per linear inch
.065 @ .00079569 lb. per linear inch
.080 @ .00116023 lb. per linear inch
.100 @ .00179687 lb. per linear inch
.130 @ .00301941 lb. per linear inch

As the progression to larger strings extends, you see a logarithmic curve in regards to the string mass; which the manufacturer has determined is the best average for all instruments that may be strung with those strings. This does not mean that it is best for your instrument, whether because of scale length, action height, fundamental vs. harmonic tones, etc. Usually, as exampled above, there is a very large difference in mass proportions from the E to the B string.

This difference is very audible and unfortunately is something that can't be solved by just buying the pre-packaged string kit. The best option you have is to initially determine which strings you like the best for a particular instrument, then buy the initial 4 pack for the standard E-A-D-G strings. Then buy several individuals of differing diameters for the B-F#-high C and try them all out. You will find one that suits your instrument scale and matches the other strings better than the others, then always purchase those exact strings for your instrument. As an aside, this obviously will require a nut job for proper string fit at the nut, but once it is done, you will be a very happy camper while everyone else continues to complain about a floppy B string, F# string, etc.

 

[flipper_gv]

Mass. The mass of the hex-core's you used was higher than the roundwound. (One of the reason's manufacturers started making them)

The higher mass allows for a higher tension to tune to the same frequency.

no, an hexagonal shape string core would be much harder to ''bend'' then a normal round core. it's like, ehh let's say, a double triangular frame.

 

[Alaska Bass]

no, an hexagonal shape string core would be much harder to ''bend'' then a normal round core. it's like, ehh let's say, a double triangular frame.

OK, the hex core with windings is somewhat stiffer than the standard round core with windings, but that does not negate the mass difference affecting the required tension for the same frequency production. The stiffer string will affect the "feel" of the string to some extent, but probably not as much as the higher tensioned string will. And actually, it's more like a hexagonal frame.

 

[bongomania]

Actually, the "rigidity/dampening characteristics resulting from the bass's (sic) structure and materials" have a lot to do with sustain, but have nothing to do with tension.

Scale length, desired frequency and string mass are the only three things that actually determine "Tension".

You are imagining that the bass body and neck are incapable of flexing. The only way that the three factors you name could be the "only" factors would be if the nut and bridge saddles were attached to a perfectly rigid inflexible surface. In reality however they are attached to a flexible system of different pieces of wood and other materials, often held together with bolts. I have owned a great many basses, and I know from personal observation that some of them were more flexible than others. It has also been my observation that the more rigid ones had tighter-feeling and tighter-sounding low E and B strings.

I know, you'll say "the string tightness is dependent only on the three factors I named"... but when a string is plucked, it vibrates not only itself but also the neck/body; and the two (or more) systems interact with each other, causing resonances and interferences, as well as literally altering the tension of the string during the vibration.

 

[Alaska Bass]

You are imagining that the bass body and neck are incapable of flexing. The only way that the three factors you name could be the "only" factors would be if the nut and bridge saddles were attached to a perfectly rigid inflexible surface. In reality however they are attached to a flexible system of different pieces of wood and other materials, often held together with bolts. I have owned a great many basses, and I know from personal observation that some of them were more flexible than others. It has also been my observation that the more rigid ones had tighter-feeling and tighter-sounding low E and B strings.

I know, you'll say "the string tightness is dependent only on the three factors I named"... but when a string is plucked, it vibrates not only itself but also the neck/body; and the two (or more) systems interact with each other, causing resonances and interferences, as well as literally altering the tension of the string during the vibration.

I do not disagree with the statement that the more "rigid" ones have a tighter-sounding low E and B string; that is common, but has to do with interaction of the string and its vibrations resonating through the woods of the neck and body. I also recognize that there are minute movements in the neck as it resonates from the string being sounded, just as it does if the body of the instrument is struck.

The comment had been made that "Feel" was being altered by more than tension, mass and scale length, and that is incorrect. All else being equal, the string is not going to differ in the pressure required to pluck it, or in the maximum travel of the string in it's positive and negative motion based upon wood selection. Tone, sustain, soul, and anything else you want to describe about the bass is definitely affected by the things you listed, but the mechanical action of the string will only be affected in such a minute way that it can't be felt by the most discerning of players, let alone come anywhere near what could be described as "floppy". Floppy (as in overly moving) B strings come from too short a scale, too small a gauge, too light a tension. Period.

 

[bongomania]

Floppy (as in overly moving) B strings come from too short a scale, too small a gauge, too light a tension. Period.

My personal experience disagrees with that. For example, I have owned three 34" scale 5-string basses recently. I strung all of them with the same model and gauge of strings (Chromes with a 130 B), and tuned them all to the standard tuning using a Peterson Strobostomp (accurate to .1 cent). They each had a different feel to the low B string, and they each had an audible difference in the "focus" of the note. By "focus" I mean the degree to which the multiple vibrations of the string reinforced the desired pitch at a steady amplitude, or interfered with each other causing weakness or perceived oscillations in the amplitude.

Edit: technically I'm not disagreeing about the "too light a tension" factor- in fact I am stating that tension on a given tuned string varies to a much more perceptible degree (IMO) than may be commonly realized.

 

[Chasarms]

Although my better judgement tells me that any effort to further contribute to this thread is futile, I feel so compelled.

Simply put, I have to disagree.

" . . . (T)he pressure required to pluck it, or in the maximum travel of the string in it's positive and negative motion. . ." does not fully define "feel", in my opinion. "Feel" by nature, is not quantifiable.

The one thing I do know for sure is that I could remove the strings from my Modulus Q5 and string them up on my Lakland JO5 and the B string would FEEL different. How do I know this for sure? Because I use the same Make, model and size of strings on both basses and the B string feels quite different on the two.

 

[Alaska Bass]

I believe our differences lie in the defining of feel. To me feel is a quantifiable thing, while tone, sustain, sound, etc. are seperate and also quantifiable things. It seems that you both feel differently.

I recognize the vast differences that woods and numerous other factors can have on the instrument and agree that any two, let alone three basses will sound different (electronics aside) in both tone and sustain due to factors outside of tension, mass, scale length and tuning frequency, and believe for the most part we may just be on different sides of the same coin.

 

[dabbler]

I believe our differences lie in the defining of feel. To me feel is a quantifiable thing, while tone, sustain, sound, etc. are seperate and also quantifiable things. It seems that you both feel differently.

I recognize the vast differences that woods and numerous other factors can have on the instrument and agree that any two, let alone three basses will sound different (electronics aside) in both tone and sustain due to factors outside of tension, mass, scale length and tuning frequency, and believe for the most part we may just be on different sides of the same coin.

Did you read Bongomania's last post??? If you did, I would expect you to respond with something to the effect that YOU had strung 3 basses (all having low B strings) with the SAME make/guage of strings and that they all "FELT" the SAME (as in the floppiness of said B strings). If you haven't done the test, you 2 are not on the same page, let alone sides of a coin.

 

[Rickett Customs]

Hey all

Lately I've been looking into funding a string purchase that happens to have more then 4 strings, such as a 5 or 6 string. Shopping around I haven't played a single one I like.

Went to GC Manhattan. Played a $3300 Modulus 6 string (name I can't recall) Sounded beautiful, too bad the B-string felt like a rubber band.

Played a 2 different Bongo 5's again floppy B's.

Played every 5 and 6 strings Fender and Ibanez in the joint and dammnit nothing worked.

Best fiver I played, in terms of a B-String, was a cheap Peavey. I was seriously going to consider it (how can a $300 bass beat out a $3300 one I don't know but hey) but upon closer inspection it had horribly uneven string response. I mean the E and B rang out loud and clear but the A and D sounded muffled and dead and then the G sounded like garbage. Hoping it was only that bass I swapped it out for another bass but it was the same problem.

Anyone know of any basses with a nice tight B?

You could try a Euro Spector,German Warwick or Ken Smith (these are all good specimens for good B and even string response (IME,IMO). BTW, I think some of these pages belongs in "strings" huh?

 

[lomo]

First of all your idea of "tight" is subjective. To me all of the basses you named have very good B strings. Also, it's how the B string "plays" not how "tight" it feels.

I disagree. Physical tightness (opposite of floppiness) can be objectively measure as string tension. This has been done, and and as per the laws of Physics, for a given string gauge, longer scale IS tighter. This has a huge impact on playability. The fan allows the tension/tightness to be more uniform across all strings than is physically possible with ANY parallel fretted instrument. This has an enormous impact on how the bass feels/plays. . Not my word, just physics. Tightness of tone as far as the subjective sound is concerned is another matter that depends on taste. Apologies for repeating myself.

 

[spade2you]

I hope this helps. Let me know if it is not clear enough or if you don't understand the physics behind it.

Really, I could care less about the physics. I'm 100% about results. Less breakaway gives a rumbling sound. More breakaway angle makes it sound very tight. Therefore, I maximize my angle and have been doing so for years. Recently, I clipped the string too short and was instantly reminded by the results of what happens if I don't maximize my breakaway angle.

 

[BellBottomBlues]

Well I pulled the trigger on the American Deluxe P V. The shop strung it up and set it up for LaBella flatwounds and it plays even better than it sounds.

 

[SWR098]

Find a neck through bass...much better low string response

 

[Akami]

I dunno, my Peavey Cirrus 5 tends to get touchy if I don't have a few coils along the tuner. I keep the action very low and get a lot of flop if I don't maximize my the breakaway angle at the nut. With more of an angle, the problem went away.

+1

This is a problem with a lot of instruments and the importance of break angle over the nut cannot be overemphasized.

The longer scale length allows for a lower fundamental frequency. The down-side to the longer length is the apparent looseness of the string, using the same mass string on a longer scale. To compensate for the additional flop and to allow for lower tuning, a string with more mass is needed. Additionally, the longer scale length requires a higher tension on the string to create the same frequency. If the instrument is quality built, the neck will be stiff enough to allow for a higher tension without damage to the instrument, thus allowing for a higher mass B string, which will give a more pleasant and clearer sounding tone (more fundamental tone, less overtone).

You've got some excellent points, but this one here is at least as confusing as some of the ones you've had trouble understanding, not to say contradictory, at least as written.

The up-side to the longer scale is the tighter feel.

 

[schecter5string]

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