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Double Bass before, on, and after the beat?
- Thread starter Tom Lane
- Start date
I like this thread as well
It's a fine line between pushing the band and rushing. Certain tunes seem to call for a 'bass' push while others a drag. I think it is a conscious thing as you do it when the music needs it, other times not.
I'd always been complimented on 'swing' & 'feel', whatever they exactly are but remember a studio incident.
The drummer was first rate - great rep. But we could not groove at least at first. Strangest thing but worked out.
It's a fine line between pushing the band and rushing. Certain tunes seem to call for a 'bass' push while others a drag. I think it is a conscious thing as you do it when the music needs it, other times not.
I'd always been complimented on 'swing' & 'feel', whatever they exactly are but remember a studio incident.
The drummer was first rate - great rep. But we could not groove at least at first. Strangest thing but worked out.
I've been experimenting the past few days with where I place the beat while playing to different playalongs, iRealB and some Aebersold tracks. I'm happy to find that I have good control over it now and I'm thinking that it's a good skill to have but like anything else, gaining proficiency and a sense of "taste" and "appropriateness" is going to take a lot of experimentation, time, and listening.
One more for you consideration:
I hear this recording as having a killer groove and the bassist is quite a ways in front of the beat the entire tune, both walking during the solos and when playing in two. Anyone disagree? If so, how do you hear it?
I think the rule of thumb for me is becoming: "make it dance", then I seem to play with the beat in a way that either breathes or drives but feels appropriate to the tune.
I hear this recording as having a killer groove and the bassist is quite a ways in front of the beat the entire tune, both walking during the solos and when playing in two. Anyone disagree? If so, how do you hear it?
I think the rule of thumb for me is becoming: "make it dance", then I seem to play with the beat in a way that either breathes or drives but feels appropriate to the tune.
It really isn't a front of thought thing. It's about putting it where the groove works. When it's right it's like the only way it works.
Tom,
I don't hear the bassist as "quite a ways in front of the beat...", so much as maybe just "leaning" a bit forward throughout. (I did notice a lot of upbeats/anticipations in the bass while the melody was in a "2" feel, which gives it some built-in momentum). I listened 2x thru to try and hear if it was dragging/steady/rushing, and my gut told me that it felt fairly steady. The bass and drums seemed to be in agreement as to the tempo, both measure-by-measure, and overall. It didn't sound like they were arguing about the Tempo/Feel. Even the soloists seem to be on the same page (so to speak).
I listened a 3rd time, and using a metronome, confirmed that the 1st melody is at approx. 122bpm, then it crept up slightly thru the sax solo to 124, and finally ended up at 125 for the last melody. That, to me, is Very Steady. The last time through a melody can sometimes sound shockingly different in character if the tempo has moved drastically - see the Bill E. Quintet tracks above.
Your "make it dance" approach, (you need to TM/Copyright this and sell T-shirts!), is firmly rooted in the early and middle eras of jazz, which functioned as a form of popular dance music. I know that Real Dancers are sensitive to, and rely upon, steady, predictable, and often very specific tempos for particular dances. (I once rehearsed with the Jazz Tap Ensemble here in LA, and one of the dancers was working out "Flight of the Bumblebee" as a Tap feature - they were very aware of how steadily we played as we accompanied them, and vice versa.)
I agree that the track feels great, and could be described as a "killer groove"... ( another T-shirt?).
Thanks for your time...(oops!).
I agree - although I didn't listen 3 x or study. I thought he played right at the tip of the sword and was the momentum forward. Sometimes it's the drummer who is up that day. hehe
I also immediately heard the anticipated kicks. The whole head is anticipated.
Learning to play that way is an art. I learned to clip the last 16th off bars at very high BPM from a great kick ass drummer. It really drove the tune - exciting. When it got going everything was anticipated.
I also immediately heard the anticipated kicks. The whole head is anticipated.
Learning to play that way is an art. I learned to clip the last 16th off bars at very high BPM from a great kick ass drummer. It really drove the tune - exciting. When it got going everything was anticipated.
How about martina? To me it sounds like they do not start with each other and lock in only at 22 seconds.
Thanks for the detailed analysis Don. I'll listen to it more deeply and play along with them - that always seems to improve my hearing.
One point of clarification: it's usually helpful in these conversations to define terms. Maybe it's already obvious to all of you, but I think of rushing/dragging and playing ahead of, on top of, and behind the beat as different things. Rushing/dragging implies to me that my pulse isn't steady, that there isn't equal time between beats, whereas playing ahead of the beat does have a consistent pulse, but is about where that pulse is in relation to the other players. I find that I tend to drag when I'm thinking - slow down and perhaps more and more over a period, and I developed a habit a while back of rushing fills at the end of measures so that I moved "one" closer to the previous "one", resulting in the band speeding up. Once I noticed I had that "rushing" problem I found it pretty easy to fix.
"Music; a lifelong journey, best taken at a steady tempo - neither rushing nor dragging."
