Double Bass Beginner extremely frustrated

[Dbass926]

The Dirty Little Secret that is not mentioned in the Simandl Book is that it is pointless (and often dangerous) to (try and) keep ALL 3 Notes (in Half-Position) held in place by the left hand...
It can also cause an unnecessary amount of tension to be exerted, AND, cause the left-hand to contort into an unnatural, uncomfortable, unsustainable shape.

Playing the bass is all about compromises, and one of them is that positions provide the structure for your left hand but few people have the hand size to accommodate the sort of rigidity you are concerned about. Simandl has fallen in popularity because many teachers advocated a locked and painful left hand position without appreciating the variety of physiology each bass player brings to the instrument.

When I play in half position, my goal is not to cover all the notes, but to pivot between 1st and 4th, 1st and 2nd, or 2nd and 4th to maintain comfort and play the correct pitch in tune. I hope this makes sense to you because the key to speed is looseness and fluidity, not rigid or stretched/tense fingers.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

^^^^ Wise words above IMO. A more relaxed hand position is healthier in the long run, but requires DB teachers to spend more time concerning themselves with helping their students hear what they are trying to play much better, and not settling for a technical “type the position in and let the instrument produce the note” approach. I think there is at the very least a healthier middle ground that we as teachers can strive for when we teach beginners and intermediate students.

 

[Don Kasper]

I hope this makes sense to you

Yes. It does...
This is what I was advocating - NOT attempting to Clamp ALL 3 notes with ALL 4 fingers in Half-Position, but to relax both the used and unused finger(s) to allow the hand & fingers to span whatever interval is needed. (Most folks can span the half-steps in Half-Position, IME.)
Sometimes the LH DOES need to span a Whole-Step (for ex.) Ab to Bb (1 - 3,4) in Half-Position - but whenever possible a loose/nimble approach is best.
IMO.
Thanks.

 

[bluefizz]

Why the hell didn't I try to play the piano?

Hey all, this is my first post here, I hope I'm not doing anything wrong.
I've been trying to learn the double bass for the last 3 weeks. I started with a professor, he seems nice, but I can't tell if he is a good teacher or not, because I don't know anything about this instrument, and whatever he says feels right.

We are using the Simandl and I am struggling hard with the half position. I am practicing with a tuner, and there is simply no way to play correct notes with the fingering Simandl suggests. If the first finger is on the right place (let's say on G#), I can also play the second in the right place, but as soon as I go to the fourth (Bb), the first leaves the position and if I try to play it, it is completely out of tune. It doesn't matter how much effort I make, the finger will not stay in place. I have been practicing at least two blocks of 30 minutes per day, but I don't see any advance. I think my hands are just too small.
I am trying to learn this thing right, and last class my professor taught me the F scale. But I had to ask to cancel this week's lesson because if I am still struggling to play simple notes, what is the point of starting to learn a scale? My professor has a masters in music, and seems to know what he is doing, but he is damn giant, much taller and with much bigger hands than I. I am 5'7, by the way.

I understand that learning takes time, and I don't expect to be good in three weeks, but not being able to move from notes in the same position in the same string is making me very frustrated. I got to the point that I look at the bass and feel angry about it. I mean, the bow is a nightmare, as it is supposed to be for a beginner, but at least I feel that sometimes I get it right, and it is just a matter of practicing until I will get the hang of it. But the fingering is never right. My hands hurt for trying to extend the fingers, and yet no good results.
Do I really have to stick with this "to each note its finger (1-2-4)", or should I give up and start learning how much I need to move my fingers when I come from a Bb to a G#?

Thanks

Welcome to Talkbass!

What your going through is normal especially if you came from electric bass.
I remember when I started to play the upright coming from electric I was just as frustrated too.
The 1-2-4 fingering is going to feel weird at first. For me I was used to 1 finger per fret. Over time it will become second nature and you wont even think about it anymore.
Height isnt really a factor. If you have a 3/4 bass its the right size for you. Its just new to you and you haven't developed muscle memory yet. The upright also makes you use muscles you didn't use on the electric bass. When I first started there was no way I could swing with a big band at 200bpms. I would get tired before the solos even started. Now I can play for hours.
Once you start working on shifting, you'll become more comfortable with the half step away notes. Dont try and play Bb with your first finger in half position and reach a low G# with your picky on the E string with out shifting to first position. You will hurt yourself and your G# will always be flat.
Lastly, depending on what style you end up focusing, the bow is going to be a nightmare for awhile. I still hate my sound with it and I practice with it all the time. It helps with your intonation, tone, etc. I personally wish I had used it more in the beginning.
Above all, try to stay relaxed when playing, have a positive attitude, and stick with it. It will take time and work, there is no short cuts, but it will pay off.

Best of luck!

 

[csrund]

Yes. It does...
This is what I was advocating - NOT attempting to Clamp ALL 3 notes with ALL 4 fingers in Half-Position, but to relax both the used and unused finger(s) to allow the hand & fingers to span whatever interval is needed...

I was just watching this video of the late Jacqueline du Pré playing the Dvorak concerto with the LSO and couldn't help but notice how fluid her left hand position is. In many spots, she contracts her hand to facilitate drilling longer notes with her intense vibrato that looks like it could shake the instrument to pieces! (Indeed, at 29:40 in the finale, her A string cries uncle and calls it quits under the bow.) You'll see her left hand configured in all sorts of different ways: pivots, extensions, contracting to dive down the fingerboard for big shifts... and her intonation is remarkably sure. Stunningly athletic playing:

 

[Don Kasper]

I was just watching this video of the late Jacqueline du Pré playing the Dvorak concerto with the LSO and couldn't help but notice how fluid her left hand position is. In many spots, she contracts her hand to facilitate drilling longer notes with her intense vibrato that looks like it could shake the instrument to pieces! (Indeed, at 29:40 in the finale, her A string cries uncle and calls it quits under the bow.) You'll see her left hand configured in all sorts of different ways: pivots, extensions, contracting to dive down the fingerboard for big shifts... and her intonation is remarkably sure. Stunningly athletic playing:

Yes! I studied with Double Bassist (James VanDemark) who studied with, (and incorporated many cellistic approaches of), cellist Paul Katz. The World Of Vibrato opened many doors, (and closed some others, esp. the "Simandl" approach of a rigid Left-Claw.) Studying vibrato (with JVanD) was a game changer, as he taught me to play with a looser, but stronger, more focused Left Side. In order to execute any degree of vibrato, the left shoulder/arm/wrist/hand/fingers must NOT be "locked", but must be pliable and strong, much like a suspension bridge that can withstand 80mph. winds.
I am primarily a jazz player these days, but I still practice a lot (NOT enough!) with the bow/vibrato, as a way to keep my Left-Side strong, yet pliable.
Thanks for your time and interest csrund.

 

[neilG]

Anybody who can do vibrato will know that you can't really do it with a rigid hand position. To insist that it's part of Simandl is nonsensical.

 

[Don Kasper]

To insist that it's part of Simandl is nonsensical.

I was not insisting that it was part of Simandl, only that the Simandl approach is not at all conducive to executing any kind of vibrato.
I had studied with a Simandl-based teacher (at first) which was a good foundation for my basic hand structure - I could play in tune (mostly), but then had to learn how to relax the Left Hand (esp.) in order to explore vibrato with my second teacher.
Thanks for your interest and expertise, neilG.

 

[jj.833]

If I get it right, you compare your fingering to what electric tuner says. Don't do that! Play (sustained keyboard, mobile app) or sing the tone you want to achieve and then find it. Goes badly? No worries, it will get better soon enough. With learning, the technique always gets doable, and the limiting thing for a player is his own head. Use every oportunity to enhance your musical soul.
There's no exact spot for a finger achievable. It's just an academic ideal. When you play up the 'fretboard', the finger presses the string slightly different way than when going down. When playing double stops, your finger gets different position also. Learn to use your ears. It's pretty hard in the beginning, but the teacher can help you with this no doubt.
1-2-4 fingering makes you run up and down the fretboard all the time. You need a hand that's flexible, not rigid. Focus on the finger that really plays the tone, other fingers are used only for support. More likely, other fingers are only to support pinky, because other fingers probably can manage.

 

[csrund]

Anybody who can do vibrato will know that you can't really do it with a rigid hand position...

Very true. Vibrating on a note is a pivot motion. A pivot requires a point (i.e. a single finger). Can't do it with all the fingers anchored to the board in a line. And, as my teacher used to point out, the motion originates in the big muscles in the upper arm/shoulder, not in the hand. (Probably digressing from the OP's concern, but it's all intertwined with those foundational left hand mechanics.)

 

[jallenbass]

Can you post a picture of your left hand in 1/2 position? Front and side view would be helpful. Maybe one of us can see what's going on.

 

[John Le Guyader]

I am 57 years old. I have been playing electric bass since grade school and fretless for the last 10 years. I finally decided to take up the upright a year ago. I am working with an instructor I respect and am pleased with. The upright has been a beast for me to learn. Upright is a very physical instrument, where having been a long-time electric bassist does not help much in learning how to properly play upright.. I have made several small advances over the last year in being able to play pizz and with a bow, but I have a long way yet to go. It has been frustrating. There have been many occasions over the last year where I think to myself "Who am I kidding that I think I can learn how to play upright!" I thought at the outset of taking lessons it would come fast based on my previous electric and fretless experience, but...it has not. I am told that is normal...ugh! But, I am now resigned to a slow transition from electric to upright after discussions on the topic with my instructor. And it's tough getting in the rehearsal time for upright with a full-time job and electric bass work on the books...I am thankful that at least one gig I am doing with an acoustic guitarist playing Piedmont Blues (think acoustic Hot Tuna) has allowed me to be able to regularly play upright...so slow and steady it goes unless I want to quit upright which I don't. In two years I retire and I plan to spend a significant amount of my retirement time on music, and I'm hoping upright work will be a part of that. Thankfully learning the upright does not negatively impact my electric playing, in fact I think it enhances my electric work. And, I am learning how to read music again and better grip theory. BE PATIENT. Don't be too hard on yourself when things go slow. Keep plugging along...

 

[In the Bass]

Playing the bass is all about compromises, and one of them is that positions provide the structure for your left hand but few people have the hand size to accommodate the sort of rigidity you are concerned about. Simandl has fallen in popularity because many teachers advocated a locked and painful left hand position without appreciating the variety of physiology each bass player brings to the instrument.

When I play in half position, my goal is not to cover all the notes, but to pivot between 1st and 4th, 1st and 2nd, or 2nd and 4th to maintain comfort and play the correct pitch in tune. I hope this makes sense to you because the key to speed is looseness and fluidity, not rigid or stretched/tense fingers.

Yes, it makes perfect sense. Thank you!

 

[In the Bass]

I want to thank you all for the suggestions. I am amazed on how welcoming this community is.

 

[Neil Pye]

I was just watching this video of the late Jacqueline du Pré playing the Dvorak concerto with the LSO and couldn't help but notice how fluid her left hand position is. In many spots, she contracts her hand to facilitate drilling longer notes with her intense vibrato that looks like it could shake the instrument to pieces! (Indeed, at 29:40 in the finale, her A string cries uncle and calls it quits under the bow.) You'll see her left hand configured in all sorts of different ways: pivots, extensions, contracting to dive down the fingerboard for big shifts... and her intonation is remarkably sure. Stunningly athletic playing:

Don't use Jacqueline Du Pre as an example or a model for your playing. She was unique and special in every single way. The only musician in the world who could play like Du Pre was Du Pre

 

[wathaet]

And, as my teacher used to point out, the motion originates in the big muscles in the upper arm/shoulder, not in the hand. (Probably digressing from the OP's concern, but it's all intertwined with those foundational left hand mechanics.)

You can absolutely play with a vibrato that originates in the hand/wrist.
I work with a few players that vibrate that way and have stunning vibratos.

 

[Neil Pye]

You can absolutely play with a vibrato that originates in the hand/wrist.
I work with a few players that vibrate that way and have stunning vibratos.

You can, yes. You should be able to do it any way, all the way from a soft, relaxed rotation coming from the shoulder, with almost no force involved, to a tight , intense, dramatic vibrato in the wrist. It's about control and choices. That's what made Jacqueline Du Pre unique (earlier post).

 

[delta7fred]

Another complete DB novice here. Long time electric bassist (fretted and fretless) that took up DB about 18 months ago.

I have got to the stage that in first position I can hit most of the notes with moderate accuracy most of the time (I'm sure it wouldn't pass the scrutiny of many here). Further up the fingerboard it is still hit and miss, and don't even mention thumb position!

I was months before I started getting even close to hitting the right notes, stick at it and you will get it eventually.

I found that bowing was a great help to improving my intonation (even if it does sound like I am trying to strangle a cat at times).

 

[csrund]

You can, yes. You should be able to do it any way, all the way from a soft, relaxed rotation coming from the shoulder, with almost no force involved, to a tight , intense, dramatic vibrato in the wrist...(earlier post).

Definitely agree that there are a lot of variations in coloring vibrato; however, the way you describe it is backward from my approach: The more intense the vibrato, the more the entire mass of the arm and shoulder come into the string, right into the fingertip. (Not forced, just a shift in mass.) Yields a big, robust tone. For a lighter, more feathery coloring, I might shift the locus of motion below the elbow into the forearm. However, the natural motion of vibrato (in my physiological book, anyway) is a pivot around the axis between the finger and thumb, which implies that the motion comes from the arm.

If you look at JDeP and see how the entire instrument is buffeted under her intense vibrato, there's no way that energy could originate in the wrist. It may drive the wrist, certainly, but it's the entire mass of the arm that produces such great energy with ease and relaxation. (Hope I'm saying that in a way that makes sense.)

Here's how my first teacher, Murray Grodner, describes it in his book, A Double Bassist's Guide to Refining Performance Practices (Indiana University Press, 2013):

I enjoy these threads of discussion with you guys a lot. (Probably straying from the OP's original question, but the dialog and different perspectives are all very good and interesting!)

Chris

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

If you look at JDeP and see how the entire instrument is buffeted under her intense vibrato, there's no way that energy could originate in the wrist. It may drive the wrist, certainly, but it's the entire mass of the arm that produces such great energy with ease and relaxation. (Hope I'm saying that in a way that makes sense.)

Agree 100%. I can clearly see it in the video.