Beginner question on scale diagrams

[mambo4]

The reason I suggest diagramming the whole neck is that it reveals the larger diatonic "uber pattern"
that all those mode "boxes" are just a small chunk of. Especially if you do it for 5 or 6 strings.
I found it a fun and enlightening exercise, back in the day.

 

[dreamadream99]

Am I missing something?

If you’re a beginner learning modes, you’re doing it wrong.

 

[GRS1959]

If you’re a beginner learning modes, you’re doing it wrong.

I have been "playing" for 3 years...now I am learning what my instructor (a very good one) is telling me to learn.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

This is the terminology you would find in a theory class. Scales don't have roots. They have a tonic. Same with keys. Chords do have roots, and inversions.
I teach music in grades 4-12. I agree that there's no reason to not use the correct terminology - even with beginners. Learn it right from the beginning. They can. You don't need to "dumb it down" for them. Also, lets be respectful.

In an effort to get a new student moving on his fret board I use the major scale box as a visual aid for both scales and chords. I have in the past use an R for the "root" note. That would be OK if we were working with chords, however that same box can be used for a scale. I thought of doing as you mentioned and using a T, but that would be incorrect when working with chords.

Is the scale degree "1" a solution for both scales and chords? What's your take on this subject.

 

[Spin Doctor]

If you’re a beginner learning modes, you’re doing it wrong.

I don't think that's necessarily true. You need a good foundation when learning them so you don't end up going down crazy rabbit holes. One of the first things I was taught when taking lessons was modes. But most people don't seem to have a good about their use when playing modern music. They think they are these little puzzle pieces that you fit into certain places or over certain chords. They are not.

 

[Upstate SC Bass]

If I was learning over again I would make sure that along with the major scale I would learn the main chord shapes and learn the CHORD TONES FOR EACH CHORD TYPE first next learn the major and minor Pentatonic scale shapes again there are only 5 Pentatonics shapes which are the same notes just starting on different scale degree
Then learn the relationship of the 1 4 and 5 chords in any key and then add in the 2m,3m,6m
Etc. that is about 85% of all common western music
Then learn the b7 and b3 chords.
And study the 2m7 57 1M7 cadence or progression

But I cannpt emphasis enough knowing your chord tones and the major and minor Pentatonics
And then build on that.

C
CM7
C7
Cm
Cm7
Cm7(b5)
Cdim7
C+
Csus

 

[Upstate SC Bass]

Hey mushroo
My description of positions was referring to both moving up the neck as well as across strings
So disregard if it is not where you are at sir.

Maybe just learn to play a E major scale on one string moving up the neck
Starting on the Low E
E,F#,G#,A,B,C#,D#,E

Or perhaps the A scale the same way open A moving upon one string etc
Then notice the location of the half steps and whole steps and their relationship to each other.

Actually if I was going to start over again I wish someone would teach me the five sharp and flat notes first!!!
They are no harder to play just that we all seem to learn everything in C to start.

 

[Wfrance3]

Thanks, I was able to figure out that each subsequent pattern starts on the next note in the scale. So for C major, the first pattern starts on C, second pattern starts on D, third pattern starts on E, etc. So there are seven patterns for each mode.

I noticed a while back that you look at it like this:

c d e f g a b
d e f g a b c
e f g a b c d
etc....

Every time you increase the scale degree, you take one note off the front and stick it on the end.

 

[mambo4]

Is the scale degree "1" a solution for both scales and chords? What's your take on this subject.

Don't know about "correct" but that's what my brain does.
every scale degree or chord tone (or chord) is a digit (some with accidentals)
at least that's my mental shorthand for relating it to the major scale.

but when typing about music I strive to be as specific as possible.
Since spoken English numbers can mean too many things in music.
Lazy communication makes confused listeners.

 

[SteveC]

"1" is a good compromise I guess.

 

[BAG]

If I was learning over again I would make sure that along with the major scale I would learn the main chord shapes and learn the CHORD TONES FOR EACH CHORD TYPE first next learn the major and minor Pentatonic scale shapes

That is almost exactly how I started.
I learned the Major scale and the main chord shapes. I would then generally use the pentatonic scales for fills. As I learned more songs, and found where some notes didn't fit it forced me to learn more theory. I'd still class myself as mediocre in theory and playing but manage to hold my own in most settings.

 

[SteveCS]

In an effort to get a new student moving on his fret board I use the major scale box as a visual aid for both scales and chords. I have in the past use an R for the "root" note. That would be OK if we were working with chords, however that same box can be used for a scale. I thought of doing as you mentioned and using a T, but that would be incorrect when working with chords.

Is the scale degree "1" a solution for both scales and chords? What's your take on this subject.

I think part of the problem you face stems from trying to use the same scale/chord box pattern, which is a fingering pattern, to demonstrate theoretical ideas of key, scale and chords/harmony simultaneously on the same diagram.

I think there is greater clarity to be had from learning/teaching these concepts in their own terms rather than looking for a term that means both Root and Tonic. Perhaps there is a reason that such a term has never been formally defined... I would not try to conceive one, especially for teaching beginners.

If I were using fingering patterns in this way I would have two sets, one focussed on scales and one on chords. I would not try to conceive yet another personalised term that is not commonly understood.

 

[Doc Blue]

I use fingering patterns this way with the scale tonic as a focal point. It just so happens for chord patterns (or shapes) the focal point is the same note, so I understand how using tonic or root erroneously can happen. I'm probably guilty myself. It's never been a source of confusion.

Geometric shapes and patterns allow me to quickly find the "correct" notes on the fretboard. Now they can be played and listened to, with the ultimate goal of developing my ear to learn and internalize the tonal relationships.

Completely agree learning chord tones first is the way to proceed, but knowing how they are developed or derived from the scale was important to further my understanding. I would not recommend learning chord tones without a minimum understanding of scales.

Pentatonic scales are great resource! The minor pentatonic is a favorite of mine for noodling.

Off topic comment. There is a lot of knowledge on this forum, and the members that have posted here and on other "beginner" threads have earned a lot of my personal respect for their willingness to share experience, suggestions, and insight to us apprentice types. Thank you. I only post to offer a fresh perspective and share what works for me in an attempt to contribute and help others as we learn, although at times I may just add confusion! Thanks everyone.

 

[Big Bottom Bob]

Sorry for the delay, but I just wanted to thank everyone for their responses to my post. Its been both informational and entertaining

BBB

 

[bholder]

And so forth.

Peter Gabriel's "So" does not start on the fourth.