Beginner questions about studio and mixer use

[Hyoga]

Hello everyone.

Not sure if this is the right sub-forum, or if it should be in live sound, or somewhere else. I’m a total newbie with studio sound, recording, etc. I recently joined my first band, and we rehearse in a rental studio. Here is an example of said studio:

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Guitarists bring their guitars and effects, I bring my bass and effects. Amps are provided, drums provided, and there is a mixer as well as speakers (left, right, and floor).

Drummer bangs on the drums, guitars and bass are plugged in their respective amps and cabinets, and only the singer is plugging his mic in the mixer. We try to orient the amps so that we can somehow hear the others. Then one of the guitarists puts some kind of microphone in front of us and records on his smartphone (the result sounds as you can imagine it would…).

I’m a total newbie, but I feel there should be a better way to use all that stuff. Not sure any of the other members is thinking like me that we should improve this, so I’m going to go ahead and take the initiative even though I’m the new member in the band. I tried to read the forum, and searched (a bit) on the internet, but I find it difficult to get real beginner information, sort of step by step. So I would like to write here what I understood might be our options.

I think I understand that going through the mixer instead of hearing our cabinets could improve significantly both hearing during rehearsal and recording.

The mixer is a MACKIE ProFX16(16ch) or MACKIE 1642VLZ4(16ch). I read the manual of the FX16, then some youtube videos about mixer basics, and I understand it shouldn’t be too different from one to the other, in principle, and therefore if I manage with one of these I should be able to adapt when it’s a different model. Also, 16 inputs should be enough (two guitars, 1 bass, drums, 3 mics for singer and back vocals), I guess.

Guitars and bass could be plugged either directly into one mixer input, or through a DI first (the studio can provide Boss DI-1 for free) then into the input. OR, it could be from the amp’s output to mixer input. OR, we could put a mic in front of each amp then into the mixer input. Up to us to choose what we prefer.

Drums: need to put mics around it and into the mixer. Or do nothing but then it won't be recorded through the mixer USB output.

Then we should be able to hear ourselves through the speakers that are connected to the mixer output, instead of from our amps. That way we all get the same mix and I can finally hear the lead guitar. And also, since the mixer has USB output, I should be able to record a much better sound with either a PC or even a smartphone, with the right app.
Unless we put mics in front of the amps, in which case the rehearsal sound would stay the same as before, but the recording only would be better.

I plan to get myself a solo studio session to actually try things out, before our next rehearsal. I’m not sure there is staff that can readily help at the studio, last time we went, it was a struggle for one of their staff to plug a second mic and have it on a specific speaker until she got someone knowledgeable and we lost quite a bit of studio renting time, so I would prefer to try it myself and become able to set it up. I also understand that if we use the speakers instead of the amps, I can write down whenever I manager nice settings, and reuse them the next time, so that would save time instead of everyone fiddling with their equipment to try to find the right setup (and fail anyway).

But first I would like to know if I’m on the right track, or if I have completely misunderstood what I read and watched and I should educate myself more before touching that thing. Thank you.

 

[DirkP]

That way we all get the same mix and I can finally hear the lead guitar.

You ask too many questions and don't make clear what you want to archieve, so it is a bit difficult to reply to your post. It is like you want to rehearse and record and kind of mimic a live gig at the same time.


But just to reply to this single question, I quoted at the start of the post: I can not think of any situation, where all musicians in a band want to hear the same mix. If this would be the case, the job of a live mixer would be an easy one: just send the same mix you send to the audience to the band.

Ever tried to play along with a record when your bass has exactly the same volume as the bass on the track? No fun. I couldn't do it, maybe you?
This is the reason, we use amps on stage, and we play close to the speakers of our amps and not of the guitar amp.

Musicians want to hear the other musicians too, but they want to hear themselves louder than all the other instruments. This is why monitor mixes are used during live gigs. But in such a rehearsal situation and due to the fact, that you don't have monitor speakers, just kind of PA speakers, forget it.

Rehearsing/Recording and Playing live are very different tasks. It shouldn't be complicated for yourself to hear the guitar better. Just position yourself closer to the guitar amp with your feet or lower the volume of your amp.

For mic recordings, you should use a stereo-mic and set up the amps and PA and drums in a way, that all sound sources come from the same direction in a stereo setting. For examle Left PA speaker, bass amp, drum set in the middle, guitar amp, right PA speaker.

If I got the info about the mixer right, the mixer can not record all single tracks to a DAW. It just says it has a 2x4 audio interface: 4 outputs/2 inputs. So you would have to create sub mixes on the mixer if you want to make a multitrack recording. So if you mic the drum set, you would mix it to a stereo sub-mix (2 channels used) so only 2 channels left. One for guitar, one for bass. No channel left for the vocals! Bad idea.
I'd say for a professionel multitrack recording you need an audio interface that has 12-16 channels. The Mixer in the rehearsal space can't do that.

If the box on the floor isn't a subwoofer, but a monitor box, it could be used for one of you - mostly the vocalist- to get a decent mix of what she or he needs to hear ot perform better. To reach this, you need to learn how to use the aux-busses or subgroups on the mixer.

 

[Hyoga]

Thanks a lot for the feedback. I have a lot to learn...

 

[Wood and Wire]

If you plug everything directly into the desk, you're liable to blow the speakers with your bass, by the time you've cranked the P.A. to compete with your drummer.

If you mic all the amps, and the drums, and run them through the desk / P.A. you're just filling the (what already looks like an acoustically lively) room with even more of the same, with added comb filtering, and feedback.

I know it's exciting getting the band into the rehearsal studio, and thrashing out songs full blast, but a rehearsal is not a gig.

The idea with a rehearsal is to put the songs under a microscope, and really scrutinise every detail - and that means everyone turning the volume down, and the drummer playing with a relaxed velocity, rather than smashing the crud out of the kit.

Start by setting the vocals up on the P.A. then get the drummer to play along, so that the snare isn't louder than the vocal. Then bring up the guitar amp volume, so it sits under the vocal, and being up the bass amp volume so that you & the drummer are able to work together, without forcing the guitarist to turn up.

With that room set up the way it is, put a stereo mic going directly to a recording device (phone could work, if it's using a dedicated external mic, but it's internal one is useless) on a stand, at about head height, out in front of the drums.

Do some test recordings, moving the mic stand further away from the drums, and closer to the P.A. speakers, to find a balance between vocals, and the rest of the band.

You'll end up with the drums in the centre of the image, with the guitar on the right, the bass on the left, and a slightly muffled, off axis vocal in the centre.

Alternatively, put the drums against the other wall (in front of the T.V. monitor), with the amps either side, and the P.A. firing in the same direction (towards the camera), with everyone else, and the stereo mic / recorder at the opposite side of the room to the drums.

 

[tothemax]

If you are just trying to get a recording of the practice, pick up a small digital recorder and do a few tests to see where you get the best mix (as the earlier posts have said).

Trying to set up a band for recording through a mixer without some background is not going to be easy and will take quite a bit of time. My recommendation would be to talk with your band and decide what your goals are, practices where you can hear yourselves, or getting a decent recording, or ???. In a room that size with a mirror wall and live drum kit it's going to be hard to mic anything through the mixer without a lot of mic bleed over.

While the mirror is cool to see yourselves and work on stage presence, it's not helpful to your sound - lots of reflection (not a pun). IMHO the first step would be to decide on your goal and see if the facility has a sound guy or reach out to a sound guy and see what they recommend. Just looking at the setup I would be thinking some type of IEM or headphone setup would be your best bet, mic the drums, DI the guitars.

Back in the day most garage bands would just stick a cassette boom box in a corner of the room to get a practice tape to listen to. Today you get the same out of a Smart phone, or a small digital recorder. I use a Tascam DR-05 it was $99 and works great. I've always found having my own recorder placed where it picks up a good mix of my playing with the band is always helpful, and good learning tool.

Anyway, hope this helps... good luck with your project.

 

[Hyoga]

Thank you very much, will reflect on that and talk with the guys.

 

[mike buzzetti]

I think they designed that room for an all BOY group , to many mirrors ( for the dance moves and to admire themselves ) , its never gonna sound good in there.,

 

[Kashofa]

I think I understand that going through the mixer instead of hearing our cabinets could improve significantly both hearing during rehearsal and recording.

Do you have trouble hearing each other when practicing? If so, try to fix that problem first before worrying about recording. That's easier said than done. First step is to go to a good sounding room. You will learn to hear what a good room sound is after playing in a lot of different rooms. It's not something someone can tell you, it's something you have to hear. However finding someone with experience can help guide you to a better practice studio (sometimes).

Now assuming you can't find a better sounding room you will have to make do with what you've got. I am trapped in a practice room that sounds like poop (other band members are good friends with the person we rent from and refuse to move) so I know what it's like to struggle to hear each other. The best first step is always to turn down although this can be hard to get a band to do. Drummers tell you they can't play quiet and guitarists tell you it sounds bad if they turn down. Such is life with amateur bands

One secret to getting guitars to play a little quieter is to get them to point the amp at their heads. The 12" speakers usually sound fantastic pointed directly at you and they are loudest that way so the guitar will likely bring the volume down a little and still love their sound. That in turn may get the drummer to back off just a touch.

If you get the band sounding good in the room then you stand a reasonable chance of getting an okay recording using a small handheld recorder like a Zoom H1, H2, or H4. Try moving it around to different locations to see if it helps improve what you get. Good luck.