Beginner tries Iwato Scale... With a heavy tune... Day two...

[Junta]

Why am I attracted to the really challenging scales ? As if I have nailed the beginner stuff ...

Oh well.. I am hoping that I can get some pointers from the good hearted pros here who have always been supportive

OK, I tackled the Locrian scale some time ago (please see link at the very bottom), and got decidedly 'mixed reviews' online regarding whether I sounded 'locrian' or not... To me, Iwato resembles the Locrian scale. I have just started my research on the Iwato, and I am sure I will find some good you tube videos, write ups, etc.

Let's set the stage, I am a middle-aged, 9 to 5 pencil pusher, who is a beginner with bass. I have more experience with electric rhythm guitar. Recording my sweet nothing songs is my thing - for fun and for learning. I play the bass, guitar and keys; drums come from the computer.

Below is an early draft. It obviously needs a lot of work. Writing better riffs ... Performance... Arrangement... Writing in a way that brings out the 'Iwato' out of my fretboards, etc. I think I will sound a little more 'Iwato-like' when I add some synth with some Japanese cultural cues.

My particular challenge, and question to talkbass is: I think I am sounding a bit more 'Iwato-like' with my down-tuned drop-A baritone electric than my bass part(s). It is very challenging to write bass parts in this scale I must say! Any pointers/tips how I can sound more Iwato-like with my bass parts, perhaps other than basically following the baritone electric parts?



My bass tone, and the degree of success in not getting lost in the mix with my P-bass (tone at ~70%) are of secondary importance at this point: I fully intend to try to improve my mix at a later stage. For now: P-Bass into compressor, into boost, into Origin Effects Super Vintage. I tried to dial in a subdued tone in order not to clash with my baritone guitar too much.

I cannot read sheet music, and have only a bsic understanding of theory ... Thanks so much, and go easy on this beginner !

Oh and here is my 'adventure' in the Locrian scale from two years ago:

 

[Papageno]

The scale you describe is a pentatonic scale built on notes from the Bb major scale (Bb D Eb G A, or 1 3 4 6 7) and is also well suited to play on a major ii V I cadence in Bb.

How do you do that? For each chord, 3 of the notes are the essential harmony tones, while the remaining 2 are to be used as approach or neighbor tones, that need to be resolved to an harmony tone.

So you have:

ii chord = Cm7: Bb, Eb, and G are your harmony notes (respectively the b7, b3 and 5 of Cm7), and D and A (respectively the 9 and 13 of Cm7) are your approach tones.

V chord = F7: you can choose A, Eb, and G (respectively the 3, b7 and 9 of F7) as your harmony tones (using the 9 as a substitute for the root), and Bb and D (respectively the 11 and 13 of F7) as your approach tones.

I chord = BbMaj7: Bb, D and A (respectively the root, 3 and 7 of BbMaj7) are your harmony tones, while Eb and G (respectively the 11 and 13 of BbMaj7) are your approach tones.

 

[Shenron]

I think your song sounds good! Although, I have no idea if it "sounds Iwato" or not.

I am not familiar with the Iwato scale, but reading its notes above, I see that it is a pentatonic derived from Locrian by removing the 3rd and 6th. I think I hear you play those 5 notes with the bass, but my ears are not good enough to be sure you aren't playing something outside this scale.

I am not sure, but I think in general pentatonics are used more for soloing than for setting the key for the whole band. Meaning that, if the whole band sticks to only the 5 notes of a pentatonic, you have more limited chords choices compared to drawing chords from a heptatonic (such as the Locrian, in this case).

However, since you want to emphasize the sound of Iwato rather than Locrian, I'd say it's a very good idea for the bass to use the Iwato pentatonic for the groove, and for the guitar to also stick to single- and double- notes riffs and just avoid playing chords completely. This way, you can make sure you aren't using those 3rd and 6th which extend your Iwato to a more general Locrian feel.

Once you're settled with that, you only have 5 notes to use on each instrument, so in order to avoid them following each other too much, I would first and foremost try to make them play different rhythms!

 

[mambo4]

"Iwato" is not a commonly used scale or term I would expect other musicians to know.
It sounds like you're in the "lets find all the weird scales" part of learning.

Where are you in the "let's learn how chords and chord progressions work" part of learning?

I ask because after major / minor / mixolydian
the practical usefulness of learn more scales diminishes rapidly
if you don't know how chords and chord progressions work

 

[Junta]

Today was 'family day' in Ontario - statutory holiday!

So I noodled and noodled... and then revised 'Iwato One' (file in original post updated)

Thank you for the constructive/encouraging comments!

Cheers!

 

[dave_p]

It’s cool that you are excited about learning and sharing while just starting out. I remember that feeling. I still have it now about different things I’m learning. If I could go back and tell myself when starting out I think the biggest advice I would give is exactly what Mambo says above. It’s priceless advice. Don’t get too hung up on scales. It’s hard to get the right mileage out of them without some knowledge of harmony. Learn your major, its modes and harmonic minor. Don’t get obsessive over it, but get used to the sound and get em under your fingers a little. What I would really do is start learning your 7th chord arpeggios. In all 12 keys. Major 7, minor 7, Dominant and half diminished. You will get a lot of mileage out of those. If you want to obsess, the inversions are a good place for that. Anyway it’s a continuous journey have fun, and don’t put so much weight on scales.

 

[Junta]

It’s cool that you are excited about learning and sharing while just starting out. I remember that feeling. I still have it now about different things I’m learning. If I could go back and tell myself when starting out I think the biggest advice I would give is exactly what Mambo says above. It’s priceless advice. Don’t get too hung up on scales. It’s hard to get the right mileage out of them without some knowledge of harmony. Learn your major, its modes and harmonic minor. Don’t get obsessive over it, but get used to the sound and get em under your fingers a little. What I would really do is start learning your 7th chord arpeggios. In all 12 keys. Major 7, minor 7, Dominant and half diminished. You will get a lot of mileage out of those. If you want to obsess, the inversions are a good place for that. Anyway it’s a continuous journey have fun, and don’t put so much weight on scales.

thank you for your insights and encouragement dave_p! Much appreciated. Apologies for the late reply.

I find it interesting that advice from pros/experienced players such as yourself have been consistent: 'Don’t get too hung up on scales'.

And yet, as a beginner not doing anything beyond online lessons (and unfortunately not regularly), the most fun I have had in my music journey (both bass and electric guitar) have been thanks to those occasions when I obsessed with a scale and recorded tunes using it. These might also be the my most 'creative' output to date... Like this Phrygian Dominant Adventure (admittedly guitar dominant, NOT BASS)... .. Cheers!

 

[Junta]

Alright - I think after today's update (reflected in the original SoundCloud.com posted piece) , I am facing diminishing returns... A bit of improved playing here, a little more consistency there...

And I tried to improve the overall tone as well; hopefully, my P-Bass tone is less buried by the baritone high gain guitars... I know this is not the forum for that angle...

Cheers!

 

[mambo4]

I think the usefulness of the advice “don’t get too hung up on scales” depends on your long term goals.

Most of us repeating this advice come from the perspective of a standard bassist, doing the standard bass stuff in a band. The job is essentially “support the harmony in a stylistically appropriate way“. Which typically requires more knowledge of chords, and chord progressions, and styles, vs knowing a large variety of scales.

Also it is very common to see posts like “I have learned all 7 modes of the major scale, but I don’t know how to use them” by players who are not spending a similar amount of effort on harmony.

So the relevance of the advice depends on your goals

If the purpose is simply to learn something, and experiment creatively with an idea, and find new sounds, and maybe invent something interesting. Then by all means learn all the scales you want.

If your goal is to get a gig, you’re going to need to be able to create a functional bass line when handed a cord chart.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

If your goal is to get a gig, you’re going to need to be able to create a functional bass line when handed a cord chart.

When we are talking about (any) bass-lines at TB, in 99.99% of all cases it's all about, more or less, properly "mimicking" someone's bass-line.
The closest discussion/s we are having about ANY "bass-line creation" is "What other notes can play?" (For the beginners.)
We don't have a thread or a forum to take a NEW BASS LINE and analyze it.