Bemoaning the lack of an audience

[QORC]

Our bread and butter used to be biker events. they were HUGE going back to 2007, 2008 and 2009. Daytona would routinely draw 250,000 bikers for Bike Week. It was not unsual for us, even at a fairly small stage, to draw 500-600 people 3 nights in a row and have some of them waiting more than an hour for a good spot up front. I remember playing in front of 2,000 at a biker event once. it was breathtaking.

but then the recession hit and it dropped off noticeably. but even now when the economy is roaring again, biker events -- which always have tons of live music and lots of interest (again, it's an age thing) -- have never really recovered. Why? The biker crowd is getting older and is retiring, dying and drifting away from the big bike events. Not just in Daytona - but noticeably in Myrtle Beach, Panama City, Laconia. pretty much everwhere.

And the younger bikers are not into the previous biker culture, or even into seeing live bands. It's a generational thing. We are seeing not the end of live music - but we are witnessing the end of an era as people around my age are getting older. The interest in bar bands -- both by owners and by younger people - is waning. Its more profitable to simply spin hip-hop, or literally have a duo playing along to tracks.

It's just some reality here.

I'm still doing the classic rock and tribute thing. And last weekend played outside in front of 40-50 people in their beach chairs they brought from home. They enjoyed us, but I've certainly had to adjust my expectations to what the market is these days. Our point now? Larger events. Casinos. Anything but bars. And the competition is fierce. It's not like it was 10 years ago even, let alone 30.

Some bands here still do really well - but it's an age thing. They are older and their followers are older. It's going to end.

well at least I got to ride a really good wave while it lasted. I feel sorry for rockers in their early 20s. The ability to play out is simply fizzling year by year. so you HAVE to be really good, really clever, and above all, some sort of gimmick that sets you apart.

 

[blue4]

Actually, it does; and it is in near-complete agreement with your post. Let me break it down for you...

"Consumption is the sole end and purpose of all production..."

Production, in any form, including playing music, or running a bar, is about the patrons of the establishment. It's not about the interest of the "artists" or the barkeep’s business.

"...the interest of the producer ought to be attended to, only so far as it may be necessary for promoting that of the consumer."

If the band does not provide a service that the barkeep, as a consumer, is willing to pay for, then he/she will not pay for live music. But, it our choice regarding "our willingness to do free labor for them". No one is "making people play for free".

If the bar/band, as a packaged consumable, do not provide a service that is valued, then the public will take "their savings out by not paying our cover charges and listening to a playlist instead.".

This is basic economics in the real world. And, as you say...

"To be honest, musicians have no moral ground to complain."

Hope this helps.

No I simply meant a musician who uses a self checkout doesn't have room to complain about others using an mp3 player instead of a live band, or a bar owner who requires a band to play to pay.
Since they are basically the same.

It's about hypocrisy based on what only effects you personally. Not that I don't appreciate the economics lesson....

 

[mikewalker]

the reality is we're selling an outdated product. there is not much of a market left for live music beyond the A list bands/artists. it's the equivalent of trying to sell black and white TVs. there might be a niche market for them but the reality is no one finds them useful or entertaining.

THIS!! Live "rock and roll" (for lack of a better label) is not only a niche market, it's a rapidly shrinking niche market.

 

[bass151]

DJ, you are absolutely correct. We play a really nice venue about 4 times a year. Started there about 8 months ago. Didn't know what to expect the first time we were there, we were to play from 8 to 11 and were specifically told the most important thing was we had to be done packed up and off the stage by 11. Turns out that's when the DJ starts, they charge a cover and the place really gets packed. We typically bring in 20 to 50 people and I thought the venue would be very unhappy with us. This venue has a killer front of house system and a full time sound man who I have known for 35 years. Asked the sound man if only 40 or 50 people showing up was going to be a problem and he said no there is never anyone there to see any of the bands. Thought this was strange because they pay us pretty well, but they pack the house and do all there business after 11 when the DJ starts.

 

[mikewalker]

DJ, you are absolutely correct. We play a really nice venue about 4 times a year. Started there about 8 months ago. Didn't know what to expect the first time we were there, we were to play from 8 to 11 and were specifically told the most important thing was we had to be done packed up and off the stage by 11. Turns out that's when the DJ starts, they charge a cover and the place really gets packed. We typically bring in 20 to 50 people and I thought the venue would be very unhappy with us. This venue has a killer front of house system and a full time sound man who I have known for 35 years. Asked the sound man if only 40 or 50 people showing up was going to be a problem and he said no there is never anyone there to see any of the bands. Thought this was strange because they pay us pretty well, but they pack the house and do all there business after 11 when the DJ starts.

I guessing your band is providing a handy tax writeoff... maybe there is something entrenched in the tax code for "live entertainment" - a clause that goes back to the 1920s or earlier

 

[tycobb73]

PLEEZZZEEE. Getting tired of the complaining.

I'm talking about a cover band here, but some of this will work for an original band.

You have to understand that a bar is in business to make money. Most are not passionate about music. It is a means to an end. I book a distillery. The owner likes music but he doesn't need to have live music for the music's sake. He talks about alcohol like we talk about basses. You should see his face light up when someone asks about the details of his alcohol. So if you can't make him money, there's no reason for you to be there. This isn't just he had sales of $700 and paid you $600. This is after he pays you, the (I think its called) ASCAP fees, facebook advertising, the product that he's using while you are there, me, he'd better come out ahead more than $100. Otherwise it isn't worth it.

Now he's going to have some people come into his bar whether he has music or not. You'd better increase his attendance above and beyond this number. If he had 20 people on a Friday night without music and he has 20 people on a Friday night with music, you really haven't done anything for him. But there are patrons of that bar that are there because there is music and they wouldn't be there otherwise. This is the "built in" crowd. There are also fans of the band, the "followers." We also have friends and family. when a band is starting out I expect some family and friends to come out. But as you play shows I expect some of my regulars to say "I'm not going to show up to this bar every weekend, but when these guys play your joint I'll be there everytime." Then you play other areas close to mine but not right on top of mine. Hopefully you will pull from those close areas and bring those people to my bar. And you will get a few family and friends. You keep on doing this and your following will grow. I don't expect the bar or the band to provide all the crowd. I expect each to provide some of the crowd.

Now lets talk about the act itself. First up is volume. My place has no dance floor. And its small. So keep your volume down. I am a musician, but I'm also a volume Nazi. I brought my wife and mother in law in when one of my favorite groups was playing. they were so loud I couldn't talk to my mother in law and she wasn't having a good time. I had to ask them to turn it down. I didn't talk to another band about volume because they always bring a good crowd. The next weekend one of my regulars said they were too loud. So next time they come in i have to have that conversation with them. You are part of the atmosphere. I want my attention evenly divided between my friends and you. Even if you're a dance band playing a dance club people want to talk to each other above all else.

The next important thing is look like you want to be there. If you look bored, the audience will be bored. I'm not saying jump all around. but don't look at a lyric sheet all the time and stand like a statue. I have a couple come in and just the faces they make to each other during their performance keeps me entertained. It is not more important that you play good. It's called "going to see a band" for a reason. I will say that music stands usually hinder this aspect of playing. But I've seen people connect with audience while using them. I can't really say 100% what works and what doesn't, just look like you want to be there.

Next up is song selection. We're cover bands. We have to play the hits. But do you have to play the same effin ones. I book mostly acoustic groups. In 3 shows I heard CCR 10 times and Folsom Prison in each show. Last weekend at practice my guitar player started playing Run to You. I was like "It's not Summer of 69, its one of the other 10 hits he had that people never seem to play yet the crowd will surely recognize it. We're adding it." My favorite group is an acoustic duo that does a cover of Straight Up by Paula Abdoul. Us being a distillery we have an older, higher income crowd. that doesn't mean old music. It means music old people like. My crowd is probably 35 to 65. My wife loves Bruno Marz. I've seen Taylor Swift in my mom's CD collection.

For God's sake be different. In my situation 1 or 2 person accostic acts dominate. It's my bread and butter. But most of them are interchangeable. It's ho hum and they all run together. I couldn't even tell you the name of the group that's playing this Saturday. Put a twist on it. What I came up with for my band is to put a rock band in there. I have a guitar player that plays a very small amp and a drummer that plays an electronic kit. It was difficult to find a guitar player that saw my vison but he loves the idea. Because we're playing with distortion and there is no dance floor we are doing some Rush and other things that dance bands can't do. But we're not an acoustic duo pumping out beatles songs all night. To even differentiate ourselves farther I bought a keyboard and have been learning the sax solo to On the Dark Side and the strings to Here Without You. Since none of us really jump around I'm making it a story tellers type thing where I tell a story about the artist or why the song is important to me. This will help us connect to the audience.

You have to understand I am paying you what I can pay you. A jazz drummer told me I should pay musicians X. I told him if I did and he filled the place to capacity I'd still lose money, I'd close and there'd be one less place to play. It went right over his head. Remember my favorite duo mentioned above? They played for X the first night. It was an awesome show with a good crowd. I gave them a 66% raise for the second show and it was awesome too. 1 person in a group of 4 said they'd play my place for free once as a tryout. I said musicians don't play my place for free. Yes I'm taking a chance, so lets settle on an introductory rate and reevaluate after the show. And whether you like it or not, all groups are connected. Holiday weekends, March madness, etc crowds are going to be low. I'll go as cheap as I can on the entertainment but I want people to expect entertainment so I have to have it. I'm expecting the other weekends to make up for these weekends. The pie is only so big. I'm going to give you your share of the pie.

Now you can say that none of this is your problem, you're just there to play music. In which case the owner will say f it, it's not worth it. I'm cancelling music. And then you'll be bitching that there is no place to play.

I will book a band starting out with no following, but I will only do so at a discount to my bands that can bring a good crowd.

 

[buldog5151bass]

 

[MultiScaleMale]

For private parties, you're entertainment. For general nights at a bar / club, you're 10-20% entertainment and 80% the crowd you can bring either directly or indirectly.

It's kinda humorous that we won't do pay to play gigs, but we will, I'm effect have our friends and family pay so that we can play. It's kinda like selling girl scout cookies so your kid can go to the jamboree or whatever the girl scouts call it.

 

[QORC]

I'm talking about a cover band here, but some of this will work for an original band.

You have to understand that a bar is in business to make money. Most are not passionate about music. It is a means to an end. I book a distillery. The owner likes music but he doesn't need to have live music for the music's sake. He talks about alcohol like we talk about basses. You should see his face light up when someone asks about the details of his alcohol. So if you can't make him money, there's no reason for you to be there. This isn't just he had sales of $700 and paid you $600. This is after he pays you, the (I think its called) ASCAP fees, facebook advertising, the product that he's using while you are there, me, he'd better come out ahead more than $100. Otherwise it isn't worth it.

Now he's going to have some people come into his bar whether he has music or not. You'd better increase his attendance above and beyond this number. If he had 20 people on a Friday night without music and he has 20 people on a Friday night with music, you really haven't done anything for him. But there are patrons of that bar that are there because there is music and they wouldn't be there otherwise. This is the "built in" crowd. There are also fans of the band, the "followers." We also have friends and family. when a band is starting out I expect some family and friends to come out. But as you play shows I expect some of my regulars to say "I'm not going to show up to this bar every weekend, but when these guys play your joint I'll be there everytime." Then you play other areas close to mine but not right on top of mine. Hopefully you will pull from those close areas and bring those people to my bar. And you will get a few family and friends. You keep on doing this and your following will grow. I don't expect the bar or the band to provide all the crowd. I expect each to provide some of the crowd.

Now lets talk about the act itself. First up is volume. My place has no dance floor. And its small. So keep your volume down. I am a musician, but I'm also a volume Nazi. I brought my wife and mother in law in when one of my favorite groups was playing. they were so loud I couldn't talk to my mother in law and she wasn't having a good time. I had to ask them to turn it down. I didn't talk to another band about volume because they always bring a good crowd. The next weekend one of my regulars said they were too loud. So next time they come in i have to have that conversation with them. You are part of the atmosphere. I want my attention evenly divided between my friends and you. Even if you're a dance band playing a dance club people want to talk to each other above all else.

The next important thing is look like you want to be there. If you look bored, the audience will be bored. I'm not saying jump all around. but don't look at a lyric sheet all the time and stand like a statue. I have a couple come in and just the faces they make to each other during their performance keeps me entertained. It is not more important that you play good. It's called "going to see a band" for a reason. I will say that music stands usually hinder this aspect of playing. But I've seen people connect with audience while using them. I can't really say 100% what works and what doesn't, just look like you want to be there.

Next up is song selection. We're cover bands. We have to play the hits. But do you have to play the same effin ones. I book mostly acoustic groups. In 3 shows I heard CCR 10 times and Folsom Prison in each show. Last weekend at practice my guitar player started playing Run to You. I was like "It's not Summer of 69, its one of the other 10 hits he had that people never seem to play yet the crowd will surely recognize it. We're adding it." My favorite group is an acoustic duo that does a cover of Straight Up by Paula Abdoul. Us being a distillery we have an older, higher income crowd. that doesn't mean old music. It means music old people like. My crowd is probably 35 to 65. My wife loves Bruno Marz. I've seen Taylor Swift in my mom's CD collection.

For God's sake be different. In my situation 1 or 2 person accostic acts dominate. It's my bread and butter. But most of them are interchangeable. It's ho hum and they all run together. I couldn't even tell you the name of the group that's playing this Saturday. Put a twist on it. What I came up with for my band is to put a rock band in there. I have a guitar player that plays a very small amp and a drummer that plays an electronic kit. It was difficult to find a guitar player that saw my vison but he loves the idea. Because we're playing with distortion and there is no dance floor we are doing some Rush and other things that dance bands can't do. But we're not an acoustic duo pumping out beatles songs all night. To even differentiate ourselves farther I bought a keyboard and have been learning the sax solo to On the Dark Side and the strings to Here Without You. Since none of us really jump around I'm making it a story tellers type thing where I tell a story about the artist or why the song is important to me. This will help us connect to the audience.

You have to understand I am paying you what I can pay you. A jazz drummer told me I should pay musicians X. I told him if I did and he filled the place to capacity I'd still lose money, I'd close and there'd be one less place to play. It went right over his head. Remember my favorite duo mentioned above? They played for X the first night. It was an awesome show with a good crowd. I gave them a 66% raise for the second show and it was awesome too. 1 person in a group of 4 said they'd play my place for free once as a tryout. I said musicians don't play my place for free. Yes I'm taking a chance, so lets settle on an introductory rate and reevaluate after the show. And whether you like it or not, all groups are connected. Holiday weekends, March madness, etc crowds are going to be low. I'll go as cheap as I can on the entertainment but I want people to expect entertainment so I have to have it. I'm expecting the other weekends to make up for these weekends. The pie is only so big. I'm going to give you your share of the pie.

Now you can say that none of this is your problem, you're just there to play music. In which case the owner will say f it, it's not worth it. I'm cancelling music. And then you'll be bitching that there is no place to play.

I will book a band starting out with no following, but I will only do so at a discount to my bands that can bring a good crowd.

so in short...you're telling us that bars only care about making a profit when booking bands?

we had no idea.

 

[5teven5trummer]

Well, Scotland is Scotland! ( disclaimer: I have Scottish genes, and value them highly)

Good! Im the most patriotic Scot in Scandanavia ! :-D

 

[bass151]

Mikewalker I think you are correct. For the life of me I have no idea why they have bands at that venue. It probably is a tax writeoff, but this venue pays bands every week and there is noone there!! I am old which does not thrill me, but as far as our band goes it seems to be an advantage as most people who come out to see us are older as well. I think our band is very fortunate as we have no problems booking gigs. In fact sometimes I have to tell them to cut back a bit on the gigs.

 

[tycobb73]

so in short...you're telling us that bars only care about making a profit when booking bands?

we had no idea.

I've seen alot of people say stuff on this site overthe years that leads me to believe that a lot of musicians don't get it.

 

[foolforthecity]

See that's exactly the opposite of here, where people go to their local every Saturday anyway whether it's Three Old Fat Men or The Rolling Stones.

I'd go as long it's just the Three Old Fat Men

 

[foolforthecity]

Hi grinx, please don't be offended, but your band does not have to be amazing. Most people who go out to see most bands is not because they are amazing, but they will come to see you if they like the music you play. Doesn't have to be played at the highest level, just at a reasonable level. The people who come to see you don't know a good band from a bad one. But they do know if they like the material you do or not. Hell your first name could be Jaco and your guitarist's last name could be Hendricks, but if they don't like the songs your toast. The best bands don't always get the gigs, the one's that make their audience feel good do.

And since I haven't heard anyone mention this yet, the bottom line is that if you're playing a lot of stuff that gets the women up and keeps them dancing, more will continue to show and I GUARANTEE the men will follow. In my experience, most of them could care less about your gritty original, they want to boogie on stuff they have some familiarity with.

 

[bass151]

I don't think anybody would disagree that the music industry is dying. I think it will continuously get worse as old guys like myself who grew up with and lived to play music die off from old age. I am currently retired for the third time, but a little over a year ago, I took a sales job at the only music store in our area other than guitar center. That company was in business for 45 years, and needless to say the owner was in business during what I would call the hayday of selling music gear and made a ton of money. The store I worked in was about 15000 square feet, so a pretty big facility. I knew they weren't doing well when I took the job, but that store was only doing a couple hundred dollars in sales per day. They thought an $800 or $1000 day was great!!! That store only did about $400,000 in sales per year. There original store which was about 20 miles from there did about $600,000 per year. I believe at one point they were doing about 6 million per year. So that is the trend in the music business. We sold almost no instruments, almost all the business was churches and commercial venues buying PA gear. Have 2 friends that work at the local Guitar Center and that store does about 3 to 4 million a year which is not a lot. I owned a small electronics store in the same area with 2 employees for 25 years and we were doing 3 million dollars a year out of a small 2500 square foot store. So seeing how few instruments were being sold out of the only independent music store in the market I live in was eye opening to put it mildly. So the store I worked at that was in business for 45 years, closed in February.

 

[Slough Feg Bass]

I went through this so many times already. trying to build a following.
I finally learned that I had to pick a specific genre, be really good at it, and sell it as such.
we do covers and originals all in the same surf music genre. we wear nice outfits most of the time.
we show up on time, watch our volume so that the crowd can talk if they want to. If they are dancing and stuff, then we go a little louder. we have small amps and small drum kit, fit into a corner and can be inconspicuous background music or uptempo dance shuffle type stuff with vocals and lights.

The venue owners/managers like that we sell something people can relate to, and that it is consistent. we do one genre and we do it well. They know what they are getting.
We really don't play bars much anymore unless we are opening for someone else, a private party, or at the request of someone who has a lot of money.
hotel bars excluded, I don't really consider them "bar" type places. but yes, we get those gigs, too.

 

[DJCalamari]

And since I haven't heard anyone mention this yet, the bottom line is that if you're playing a lot of stuff that gets the women up and keeps them dancing, more will continue to show and I GUARANTEE the men will follow.

This 100%. The punk/metal scene has always been a sausage party, but if you want to break out of your niche you need to appeal to more than just dudes. That means something beyond sick chops and a shouty lead singer. Like good songs.

 

[buldog5151bass]

Like any other business, you have to market properly. For instance, I'm 53. Most of my friends are not interested in going to a bar to drink cheap beer all night. On the other hand, they will go to a decent place, and drop some decent money on good food and drink. More restaurants are having nightly entertainment. Those are places I look for some gigs.

 

[SLO Surfer]

No one likely mentioned that because it's not even remotely as simple as that. Just get an opening slot with a well known band? Like it's just sitting there on the floor and you have to just go pick up and pocket it? If it were that simple, there wouldn't be a need for threads like this.

Inconveniently, I also just can't "get" a new higher paying job when I'm unhappy with my paycheck from time to time.

I don't intend to sound coarse, but in my experiences, booking is a game that needs to be played from many angles. You need to get your name out there for sure, and yes, you NEED to target gigs with more well known bands to get your band's name out there, but no reputable promoter is going to let you open for well known bands if you haven't established yourself first.

It takes time more than anything. It certainly helps if you know the right people in the right places...

I meant “getting” opening slots with established bands as something to work towards and focus on rather than trying to headline your own shows right out of the gate, as the OP has been doing. You said it yourself, “you NEED to target gigs with more well known bands to get your bands name out there.” I’m not sure why you disagree with my post when you summed it up yourself in that one sentence.

 

[buldog5151bass]

I meant “getting” opening slots with established bands as something to work towards and focus on rather than trying to headline your own shows right out of the gate, as the OP has been doing. You said it yourself, “you NEED to target gigs with more well known bands to get your bands name out there.” I’m not sure why you disagree with my post when you summed it up yourself in that one sentence.

Depends upon the market - been a while since I was doing much originals. But rather than PTP, or tag along with others, what I have seen work is several bands get together and promote their own show - pool the best backline you have, so the only thing you have to do between acts is change cymbals, and maybe guitar amps. You can get venues at a reduced rate on a slow night.