Berlin Wall Between Academics and Art

[Sgt. Rock]

Well unlike some clearly you HAVE a corpus callosum fergie

You're right. If one separates art from academics in his learning then there's no way he can perform artfully. To demonstrate this, here's the guy constantly advocating this approach, that Jeff Berlin fella playing in the typical dry, mechanical, soulless, academic, non-musical manner that follows from maintaining this separation.

 

[afromoose]

Ok I just read the post 87

I've got a book by Percy Buck, the organ master at Oxford, from 1947 called 'the psychology of music'. He describes a student that wants to learn ragtime piano and then calls ragtime 'the poison of our times'. He's a great guy and really interesting ideas - the book is very good, but in some ways he's still very narrow minded, like with the ragtime thing.

You guys remind me of him.

 

[afromoose]

You're right. If one separates art from academics in his learning then there's no way he can perform artfully. To demonstrate this, here's the guy constantly advocating this approach, that Jeff Berlin fella playing in the typical dry, mechanical, soulless, academic, non-musical manner that follows from maintaining this separation.

I've already seen that video

 

[Sgt. Rock]

Ok I just read the post 87

I've got a book by Percy Buck, the organ master at Oxford, from 1947 called 'the psychology of music'. He describes a student that wants to learn ragtime piano and then calls ragtime 'the poison of our times'. He's a great guy and really interesting ideas - the book is very good, but in some ways he's still very narrow minded, like with the ragtime thing.

You guys remind me of him.

Jeff doesn't criticize or dismiss any genre of music. The discussion is music education, which by any objective assessment is a real mess these days.

 

[pedro]

Maybe it comes down to what is art or artistic vs. academic or maybe it’s a difference between classical or rock or jazz but I do recall when I was a music major that most of my lesson times was spent on the correct phrasing and voicing of a particular piece. I think that's a pretty common experience at least among classical musicians. Playing the notes correctly, etc. was the beginning of the process but learning the subtleties could take a very long time. At least for most of the folks that I know that studied classical music that was the norm.

 

[THand]

Ok I just read the post 87

I've got a book by Percy Buck, the organ master at Oxford, from 1947 called 'the psychology of music'. He describes a student that wants to learn ragtime piano and then calls ragtime 'the poison of our times'. He's a great guy and really interesting ideas - the book is very good, but in some ways he's still very narrow minded, like with the ragtime thing.

You guys remind me of him.

Is that a compliment or an insult?

Veiled insults aren't necessary, and historically can cause problems without anyone being helped.

"Learn to hate correctly"- Bobcat Goldwaith.

Maybe it was a compliment. I'm not familiar with him or his work.

 

[Hutzbordello]

REAGAN SMASH!!!!!

 

[wade_b]

Without art, there would be no point in studying music in the first place. I think all teachers must first inspire their students with demonstrations of their musical capabilities.

Martial arts students must witness and be inspired by the command of the art by the instructor before submitting effectively to his/her instruction.

Why should it be any different in music?

 

[afromoose]

Jeff doesn't criticize or dismiss any genre of music. The discussion is music education, which by any objective assessment is a real mess these days.

How can you say music can't be taught properly without reading staff notation and not criticise or dismiss Indian Classical? By extension, what link of origin does the blues have with staff notation? Of course you dismiss and criticise other genres of music simply by saying that music teachers who don't teach using notation are lesser. I will pass those thoughts on to Moussa Koyate, an african griot who teaches me kora parts aurally which I play on guitar, and my Indian classical teacher who teaches me aurally as his guru taught him. This whole idea of 'the teaching profession needs to be regulated like the medical profession' - you're just barmy. I would prefer to learn reggae bass from an unqualified Carribean guy who's learned nyabinge drumming from age 3, than from a 'qualified' pedantic classical minded teacher who hasn't even got the imagination to think how music could be taught without using staff notation.

 

[wade_b]

How can you say music can't be taught properly without reading staff notation and not criticise or dismiss Indian Classical? By extension, what link of origin does the blues have with staff notation? Of course you dismiss and criticise other genres of music simply by saying that music teachers who don't teach using notation are lesser. I will pass those thoughts on to Moussa Koyate, an african griot who teaches me kora parts aurally which I play on guitar, and my Indian classical teacher who teaches me aurally as his guru taught him. This whole idea of 'the teaching profession needs to be regulated like the medical profession' - you're just barmy. I would prefer to learn reggae bass from an unqualified Carribean guy who's learned nyabinge drumming from age 3, than from a 'qualified' pedantic classical minded teacher who hasn't even got the imagination to think how music could be taught without using staff notation.

Wow dude.

There's no reason to draw a line in the sand like that.

Jonas Hellborg has learned Indian music in the old tradition as you describe, and his ability to read and understand music certainly hasn't rendered him any less capable.

Why would you even ask: "How can you say music can't be taught properly without reading staff notation and not criticise or dismiss Indian Classical?"

Isn't the answer to that question obvious? Anyone can choose to learn to read music in the western style, and then commit to world styles as you see fit - not necessarily in that order.

 

[afromoose]

Wow dude.

There's no reason to draw a line in the sand like that.

Jonas Hellborg has learned Indian music in the old tradition as you describe, and his ability to read and understand music certainly hasn't rendered him any less capable.

There is every reason to draw a line in the sand.

And that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about teachers on this forum saying that the profession should be regulated so that only 'qualified' teachers can teach, according to THEIR values, which from what I see come from the classical tradition, and NO OTHER.

 

[JimmyM]

honestly, i couldn't deal with a teacher who couldn't teach me to read music. while there are many players out there who can play without reading, they're by far not the norm. the norm is the person who can't make heads or tails out of it then sticks the bass under the bed until the spouse sells it at a garage sale after they divorce

and pulling out examples of famous players who can't read and can play their asses off really does nothing to change that fact.

 

[Sgt. Rock]

...Of course you dismiss and criticise other genres of music simply by saying that music teachers who don't teach using notation are lesser...

Do you get paid to teach?

 

[afromoose]

Do you get paid to teach?

Yeah I do I have 32 students.

 

[Sgt. Rock]

Yeah I do I have 32 students.

Then I understand why Jeff's criticisms sting. He's still correct.

 

[wade_b]

There is every reason to draw a line in the sand.

And that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about teachers on this forum saying that the profession should be regulated so that only 'qualified' teachers can teach, according to THEIR values, which from what I see come from the classical tradition, and NO OTHER.

But then you use examples of non-western musical styles to illustrate your point?

I know you started a thread where you describe yourself as a non-reader that is interested in teaching, so I'm just gonna go on a limb and assume that's what you're talking about here.

I guess you're gonna get some strong opinions from those that have put time into the study of music, as well as those that are interested in taking lessons.

All I'll say is that I hope you're good at writing out tablature.

Also, how will you document the proper placement and duration of the notes rhythmically?

Your argument for musical illiteracy really doesn't make any sense at all in this context, and you suggesting that people should be "imaginative" and use audio or video to learn is pretty inefficient to both the teacher and the student.

 

[whocaresnotme]

Well said!

Thanks, Jeff. But because of you I have sold all of my basses including my 7 string and I don't like my 5 string anymore and I bought a 4 string which should be here anytime. LMAO.... Back to basics and the music books and I am 63. Go figure.... Full circle....

Thanks for your inspiration.

 

[Billnc]

Notation for the blues would be absurd, and for most rock/pop and metal etc.
So would expensive lessons, a high level (we're talking very high level, Rev Gary Davis?) mentor or teacher, though, would have much to offer I'd think.

I firmly believe that in order to teach one must be able to read and should teach reading.
It strikes me as patently absurd to teach western music prinicples without it.

I got really PO'd the other day, I used to be a Judas Priest fan, so for the heck of it read an article with a recent interview. Tipton and Downing both have been able to read since childhood and had formal training on piano. THAT never came up in the guitar rags at the height of their career, something I consider a disservice. You do not learn by studying a player (you of course can study a style) look at the SRV clones who CAN'T play blues yet nail his licks. You study what they studied and dang, most guys in the industry have studied, or have very short careers.

 

[afromoose]

But then you use examples of non-western musical styles to illustrate your point?

I know you started a thread where you describe yourself as a non-reader that is interested in teaching, so I'm just gonna go on a limb and assume that's what you're talking about here.

I guess you're gonna get some strong opinions from those that have put time into the study of music, as well as those that are interested in taking lessons.

All I'll say is that I hope you're good at writing out tablature.

Also, how will you document the proper placement and duration of the notes rhythmically?

Your argument for musical illiteracy really doesn't make any sense at all in this context, and you suggesting that people should be "imaginative" and use audio or video to learn is pretty inefficient to both the teacher and the student.

I'll be specific - I read staff notation as I learned piano to grade 7 when I was a child. I know what the notes on the staff are, but had never applied it to bass. This is why I got through Ed Friedland's first method book in about 2 hours. I took my grade 5 theory when I was about 10. Just because I've not used staff notation for bass doesn't mean I don't know what is going on with it and I have also started all my students reading because I think considering the materials available Ed's is the best. Most guitar is taught without notation except classical - I'm at a loss as to why there is this insistence from the bassists.

I have not got a problem with reading, and I'm not arguing for musical illiteracy. Using non-western examples is a way of pointing out the effectiveness of non-written teaching. The blues, or funk, ARE western styles, but they are NOT related to staff notation any more than the non-western styles I mentioned ALSO they were created by musicians who came from non-staff notation cultures.

What I have a problem with is this attitude that teacher who don't teach reading are inferior and shouldn't be teaching. It's absolute rubbish, and by logical extension, excludes musicians and learners. I pay £25 per hour to my sarod teacher and I think he absolutely deserves it - I learn an immense amount in every lesson. Similarly if I had a blues teacher or a reggae teacher it's up to me to decide if I would like to pay the money.

In answer to your question about note values, I use a combination of staff notation and tab for most learners as they find it very easy to use. I also notate using Finale in staff notation, with the tab beneath. I have posted a link on this site to an example lesson before but the post was removed because it was off topic.

 

[Sgt. Rock]

What I have a problem with is this attitude that teacher who don't teach reading are inferior and shouldn't be teaching. It's absolute rubbish, and by logical extension, excludes musicians and learners.

It's not an attitude, it's a fact, and one that hurts your pocketbook (and apparently your ego) as potential students are made aware of it. The only people it excludes are people who shouldn't be teaching in the first place. From your own description of your methods, I'd place you in that category.