Berlin Wall Between Academics and Art

[afromoose]

It's not an attitude, it's a fact, and one that hurts your pocketbook (and apparently your ego) as potential students are made aware of it. The only people it excludes are people who shouldn't be teaching in the first place. From your own description of your methods, I'd place you in that category.

You know what, sergeant rock, seeing as I AM teaching ALL my bass students to read, I don't really know what you're talking about.

 

[wade_b]

It's not an attitude, it's a fact, and one that hurts your pocketbook (and apparently your ego) as potential students are made aware of it. The only people it excludes are people who shouldn't be teaching in the first place. From your own description of your methods, I'd place you in that category.

It looks like he edited his post to describe how he does in fact use notation to convey musical concepts.

 

[afromoose]

It looks like he edited his post to describe how he does in fact use notation to convey musical concepts.

Yeah, the same as every teacher that uses tab. Use the notation for the rhythm, the tab for the notes. I don't think you'd refer to that as 'reading' though would you?

 

[wade_b]

You know what, sergeant rock, seeing as I AM teaching ALL my bass students to read, I don't really know what you're talking about.

If I may...

I think where this is going "off track" is the assumption that strong encouragement is equivalent to condemnation.

Also, there will be those that condemn things: why let that concern you so much if you are getting results?

 

[afromoose]

If I may...

I think where this is going "off track" is the assumption that strong encouragement is equivalent to condemnation.

Also, there will be those that condemn things: why let that concern you so much if you are getting results?

Exactly.

 

[afromoose]

If I may...

I think where this is going "off track" is the assumption that strong encouragement is equivalent to condemnation.

Also, there will be those that condemn things: why let that concern you so much if you are getting results?

But I would definitely say there is condemnation going on round here.

 

[wade_b]

Yeah, the same as every teacher that uses tab. Use the notation for the rhythm, the tab for the notes. I don't think you'd refer to that as 'reading' though would you?

Personally I'd prefer the notes on the staff as well, in most cases: I mean, why not put the tab on top and std notation on the bottom?

Now, if I'm to learn a difficult piece that is unconventional, then yes, I would appreciate tab, but only if I have assurance that those positions and fingerings are exactly what the original performer used or uses.

 

[wade_b]

But I would definitely say there is condemnation going on round here.

I won't condemn you, but I WILL condemn tablature.

My background and yours are very similar. I did the classical piano bit for 6 years......got to where I hated the sound and even the thought of playing classical piano music (my teacher had multiple music degrees and supported herself fulltime with music. She taught the classical method, but she had "Pop" and "Jazz" "tracks" that the students could choose, as well as pure classical, which was geared towards making you a concert-level pianist. I was on the "Pop" track, by choice and due to my small hands: example, I choose "The Entertainer" as a recital piece but still had to work up some Rimsky-Korsakoff and of course more etudes and method books than I care to acknowledge.)

Went to guitar.

Absolutely REFUSED to apply any academic concepts. I didn't even really care to learn the notes I was playing, though I did give some passing thought. I was free to rock, to use my ear, to figure out how things worked. It was cool to play by ear!

But then I hit a brick wall. I found I couldn't retain more than 10 or 15 songs in memory at any one time. Every song I learned was a new experience. Of course, I started to see and use patterns. I took Doug Marks Metal Method, and learned scales and modes.

I learned the pentatonic box patterns, up and down the neck.

And after all of that, I still couldn't COMMAND my instrument. I found that I was relying on tabs and other people to "Show me". Worse, the areas that I did feel comfortable in wound up being riffs and cliche's - patterns. Not notes, but "put your finger here, 3rd fret 2nd string" - that's a lot of mental weight to carry around man!

How was this any different than my sight reading days, save for the fact that I wasted a lot of time and money trying to get over the hump and never succeeding?

Since I've started applying academic concepts to the instrument, the ease in learning tunes has gone WAY up. And I can now easily retain over 100 songs without needing to devote practime time (clarify: without needing to practice so that I can remember where to put my fingers on the neck).

Now I'm getting close to the point where I realize I'm hitting yet another plateau: I need authoritative guidance on physical technique and theory/harmony concepts in order to take my playing to the next level, where I'd really like it to be.

 

[Sgt. Rock]

You know what, sergeant rock, seeing as I AM teaching ALL my bass students to read, I don't really know what you're talking about.

Your original post did not state this.

I don't think there needs to be any kind of regulation, FWIW. The only thing necessary is for guys like Jeff to continue to advocate and practice superior methods of instruction that give students a broad academic understanding of music. Informed consumers will do the rest.

 

[afromoose]

I won't condemn you, but I WILL condemn tablature.

My background and yours are very similar. I did the classical piano bit for 6 years......got to where I hated the sound and even the thought of playing classical piano music (my teacher had multiple music degrees and supported herself fulltime with music. She taught the classical method, but she had "Pop" and "Jazz" "tracks" that the students could choose, as well as pure classical, which was geared towards making you a concert-level pianist. I was on the "Pop" track, by choice and due to my small hands.)

Went to guitar.

Absolutely REFUSED to apply any academic concepts. I didn't even really care to learn the notes I was playing, though I did give some passing thought. I was free to rock, to use my ear, to figure out how things worked. It was cool to play by ear!

But then I hit a brick wall. I found I couldn't retain more than 10 or 15 songs in memory at any one time. Every song I learned was a new experience. Of course, I started to see and use patterns. I took Doug Marks Metal Method, and learned scales and modes.

I learned the pentatonic box patterns, up and down the neck.

And after all of that, I still couldn't COMMAND my instrument. I found that I was relying on tabs and other people to "Show me". Worse, the areas that I did feel comfortable in wound up being riffs and cliche's - patterns. Not notes, but "put your finger here, 3rd fret 2nd string" - that's a lot of mental weight to carry around man!

How was this any different than my sight reading days, save for the fact that I wasted a lot of time and money trying to get over the hump and never succeeding?

Since I've started applying academic concepts to the instrument, the ease in learning tunes has gone WAY up. And I can now easily retain over 100 songs without needing to devote practime time (clarify: without needing to practice so that I can remember where to put my fingers on the neck).

Now I'm getting close to the point where I realize I'm hitting yet another plateau: I need authoritative guidance on physical technique and theory/harmony concepts in order to take my playing to the next level, where I'd really like it to be.

You know I learned piano for years and put in hundreds and hundreds of hours of practice, studying with a qualified teacher etc. After all that what do I have to show for it. The only pieces I can play are ones that I can remember from being a child, and I have no improvisational ability on the piano. I have met dozens of grade 8 classical musicians who similarly can't do anything with their instrument unless there are notes in front of them.

Lots of teachers rely on using notation because it's easy - all you do is put the stuff in front of the kid, and if they can't do it, it's because they haven't done their homework.

 

[afromoose]

Your original post did not state this.

I don't think there needs to be any kind of regulation, FWIW. The only thing necessary is for guys like Jeff to continue to advocate and practice superior methods of instruction that give students a broad academic understanding of music. Informed consumers will do the rest.

Yeah no regulation apart from me, who shouldn't be teaching, due to my methods, which you didn't even know about, because you don't even think it's worth asking.

Screw you man you're a bigot just like Jeff Berlin and his massive ego dedicating a whole ****ing thread to 'ask jeff what he think about the price of fish' or some such ********.

**** you and **** this forum. What the **** is this thread even doing in 'general instruction'.

 

[wade_b]

You know I learned piano for years and put in hundreds and hundreds of hours of practice, studying with a qualified teacher etc. After all that what do I have to show for it. The only pieces I can play are ones that I can remember from being a child, and I have no improvisational ability on the piano. I have met dozens of grade 8 classical musicians who similarly can't do anything with their instrument unless there are notes in front of them.

Same here dude, same here.

I can't even remember the titles of the songs I learned, let alone how to play them.

But what I DID gain was a pretty good reading ability - not so much "Sight Reading on the fly", but with a few minutes of study and a pencil to mark up some rhythmic "cheats", I was good to go.

But you know - you and I were on a performance track. We weren't being taught how to improvise, and we didn't learn much usable music theory.

I picked up some theory just by being curious, and taking advantage of the fact that my teacher was also a jazzer: the curriculum didn't call for it though.

 

[fdeck]

Maybe it comes down to what is art or artistic vs. academic or maybe it’s a difference between classical or rock or jazz but I do recall when I was a music major that most of my lesson times was spent on the correct phrasing and voicing of a particular piece. I think that's a pretty common experience at least among classical musicians. Playing the notes correctly, etc. was the beginning of the process but learning the subtleties could take a very long time. At least for most of the folks that I know that studied classical music that was the norm.

I didn't get to the college level in music, but my classical training was pretty much the same way. We didn't learn extensive theory. In fact, the students who learned chord and tonal theory were the ones who were studying jazz. The classical students learned different theory. A friend of mine with a music minor knows all about the theory behind the structure of long compositions such as entire symphonies, something that has yet to find widespread use in jazz.

But in classical music, though theory is important for composition and to some extent interpretation, you aren't really doing theory on the fly. That's what I think makes jazz unique. It's not just knowing how chords relate to the tones of melodic lines, but being able to make it happen in real time, that distinguishes a jazz player.

I have compensated for my lack of formal training by "learning theory by immersion," meaning that I have played so much that I have internalized the standards and can solo over changes that aren't too esoteric. But I wouldn't recommend this approach to anybody, and I could face the "wall" that Jeff describes at any point.

 

[THand]

Thanks, Jeff. But because of you I have sold all of my basses including my 7 string and I don't like my 5 string anymore and I bought a 4 string which should be here anytime. LMAO.... Back to basics and the music books and I am 63. Go figure.... Full circle....

Thanks for your inspiration.

As a 47 year old who is going to Jeff's One Week Intensive in Sept, I want to thank YOU for your inspiration!

 

[JimmyM]

You know I learned piano for years and put in hundreds and hundreds of hours of practice, studying with a qualified teacher etc. After all that what do I have to show for it. The only pieces I can play are ones that I can remember from being a child, and I have no improvisational ability on the piano. I have met dozens of grade 8 classical musicians who similarly can't do anything with their instrument unless there are notes in front of them.

Lots of teachers rely on using notation because it's easy - all you do is put the stuff in front of the kid, and if they can't do it, it's because they haven't done their homework.

come on, dude. you know that's a load. also, the thing about guitar teachers not teaching reading...the good ones do.

and as for the folks who can play well with a sheet of music in front of them but can't play without it? it's because they haven't been taught to play without it. maybe there are people who truly have no aptitude and can't play without a sheet in front of them, but at least they can do something, and it's only because they read that they can do as much as they can. without reading, they wouldn't even be able to do that.

that argument is the "causation without correlation" argument. there's no way you can prove that knowing how to read music causes people not to be able to play without reading because it's not true.

 

[JimmyM]

Yeah no regulation apart from me, who shouldn't be teaching, due to my methods, which you didn't even know about, because you don't even think it's worth asking.

Screw you man you're a bigot just like Jeff Berlin and his massive ego dedicating a whole ****ing thread to 'ask jeff what he think about the price of fish' or some such ********.

**** you and **** this forum. What the **** is this thread even doing in 'general instruction'.

wow, calm down, dude. you're free to teach however you want, even if it's wrong.

 

[wade_b]

and as for the folks who can play well with a sheet of music in front of them but can't play without it?

it's because they haven't been taught to play without it. maybe there are people who truly have no aptitude and can't play without a sheet in front of them, but at least they can do something, and it's only because they read that they can do as much as they can. without reading, they wouldn't even be able to do that.

Truth.

 

[Sgt. Rock]

Yeah no regulation apart from me, who shouldn't be teaching, due to my methods, which you didn't even know about, because you don't even think it's worth asking.

Screw you man you're a bigot just like Jeff Berlin and his massive ego dedicating a whole ****ing thread to 'ask jeff what he think about the price of fish' or some such ********.

**** you and **** this forum. What the **** is this thread even doing in 'general instruction'.

Are you going to take your ball and go home now? What do you think your students would think of this kind of behavior? This is not only unprofessional, it's immature and sad.

 

[Tehrin Cole]

You can be both,academic,and artful!The benefits of a music education are enormous!
It provides you with more tools,so to speak,to further build upon your artistry,and increase your earning potential professional musician!

If I may loosely paraphrase apiece of an article that Jeff had written in Bass Player magazine some years back: "Short of a lucrative recording contract,you're going to have a very tough time trying to earn a living as a professional musician."


I totally agree with this sentiment!

Having a music education opens many doors that would otherwise,be closed to you where employment is concerned. It also greatly enhances any natural ability you may already have!

As musicians, isn't it our objective to grow?

 

[svenbass]

**** you and **** this forum. What the **** is this thread even doing in 'general instruction'.

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