Best Lightweight Head at 8 ohms

[jnewmark]

The LMII is very even and very clean, and if that's not your thing, then that's not your thing. The Shuttle is quite a bit more 'inherently voiced', and is brighter up top and more compressed down low. That might just be a better 'mix and match' with the cab you are using.

I'm not particularly impressed with any of the micro heads running into a large 8ohm cabinet. They are really all designed to put out their best tone run at 4ohms, especially if you dig in a bit. Obviously, if you play at only moderate volumes and don't use aggressive playing styles (like digging in with a pick or slapping), most will perform fine at 8ohms.

I understand that the Shuttle Max 6 has a bit more even tone and ooomph than the original Shuttle 6, and it has a MUCH better EQ/preamp, with variable voicing controls and two bands of semiparametric mids, and a separate tube and SS pre. That might do the ticket, but it costs a bit more than the other heads you are considering.

The new LMIII has been modified to provide a bit more ooomph at 8ohms, but it sounds like the tone didn't work for you, versus the volume, so that probably wouldn't really be an option.

In this day and age, having a large 8ohm cab as a stand-alone for use with a micro head makes very little sense to me, but if that's the route you've decided to go, the Shuttle Max 6 seems to be a good option for you, given your review above.

I would stay away from the GK and Carvin due to the massive number or problem posts each of these Micro's have had.

Thanks, Ken. Actually, I don't consider the Carvin LS 1503 a " Large 8 ohm cab" - it is certainly smaller than your typical 4x10, and , according to Greenboy, a pretty efficient cab for the money. In fact, I believe it was the inspiration for his FearFul designs, but I don't want to speak for him. Anyway, in my quest for smaller and lighter, I'm having Don at Low Down Sound build me a cab with the Eminence 3012LF, so maybe a change in cabs will make a difference. I actually like the Shuttle tonewise and the whole " volume " thing is pretty subjective anyway. But the Carvin actually sounded better to me with more usuable tone options than either of the other two heads for my ears , anyway. But of course, I had the problems others had with this head and finally gave up on it. Sure is nice to have options though!

 

[KJung]

Thanks, Ken. Actually, I don't consider the Carvin LS 1503 a " Large 8 ohm cab" - it is certainly smaller than your typical 4x10, and , according to Greenboy, a pretty efficient cab for the money. In fact, I believe it was the inspiration for his FearFul designs, but I don't want to speak for him. Anyway, in my quest for smaller and lighter, I'm having Don at Low Down Sound build me a cab with the Eminence 3012LF, so maybe a change in cabs will make a difference. I actually like the Shuttle tonewise and the whole " volume " thing is pretty subjective anyway. But the Carvin actually sounded better to me with more usuable tone options than either of the other two heads for my ears , anyway. But of course, I had the problems others had with this head and finally gave up on it. Sure is nice to have options though!

+1 Volume discussion are a losing game, since many are fine with a 110 and 50 watts, and many feel buried with 800 watts and a 410.

And yes, both the GK MB2-500 and the Carvin micro seem to be kind of disasters (and I've already seen posts of the new EA's YET AGAIN having to be returned for repair.. unbelievable!). It seems that MB and Genz (and if you have stupid money, Walter Woods and TecAmp) own this sub-category of the bass amplification market.

 

[tolson36]

On the power/pot/taper thing I have had both LMII and Shuttle. The master gain on the LMII seems to bring up the power earlier than does the Shuttle. But it also gets to a point earlier where turning it up more does very little. Seems like 75% of it's power is developed in the first half of the knobs travel.

Also, the Shuttle's input gain requires a healthy amount of input adjustment on a passive bass to hit the sweet spot. The pre section on the Shuttle has both a gain adjustment and a final volume tweak before heading into the EQ section. The gain adjustment has a much bigger impact than the final (pre-eq) volume does. That 2nd gain knob on the Shuttle will not entirely make up for the first (gain) knob being set too low.

 

[KJung]

On the power/pot/taper thing I have had both LMII and Shuttle. The master gain on the LMII seems to bring up the power earlier than does the Shuttle. But it also gets to a point earlier where turning it up more does very little. Seems like 75% of it's power is developed in the first half of the knobs travel.

Also, the Shuttle's input gain requires a healthy amount of input adjustment on a passive bass to hit the sweet spot. The pre section on the Shuttle has both a gain adjustment and a final volume tweak before heading into the EQ section. The gain adjustment has a much bigger impact than the final (pre-eq) volume does. That 2nd gain knob on the Shuttle will not entirely make up for the first (gain) knob being set too low.

+1 However, when all this is taken into account, the LMII still outperforms the Shuttle 6.0 in overall volume and even tone through the low end (which may or may not be meaningful to each individual player). It sounds, though, like the new Shuttle Max 6.0 is a more even comparison with the LMII (although now, there is an LMIII).

Both are great, and have very different voicings. However, if you are rating them on pure volume and an even voicing from low end through upper treble, the LMII is the clear winner, if you read the 1000 or so posts from those not associated with either brand.

 

[jnewmark]

On the power/pot/taper thing I have had both LMII and Shuttle. The master gain on the LMII seems to bring up the power earlier than does the Shuttle. But it also gets to a point earlier where turning it up more does very little. Seems like 75% of it's power is developed in the first half of the knobs travel.

Also, the Shuttle's input gain requires a healthy amount of input adjustment on a passive bass to hit the sweet spot. The pre section on the Shuttle has both a gain adjustment and a final volume tweak before heading into the EQ section. The gain adjustment has a much bigger impact than the final (pre-eq) volume does. That 2nd gain knob on the Shuttle will not entirely make up for the first (gain) knob being set too low.

+1 on the Shuttle. I was shocked at how much the Gain could get the amp stupid loud and how little the Pre Volume and Master actually did unless the Gain was at least at the 2 o'clock position. I actually have this kind of setup on my Roland DB 700 combo, but it could'nt be more different than night and day. I probably don't understand the logic behind a three knob gain structure correctly; it just does'nt seem very intuitive to me compared to the Carvin which was relatively easy to grt different sounds .

 

[tolson36]

"the LMII still outperforms the Shuttle 6.0 in overall volume "

I guess we can agree to disagree--I have had both (in fact have returned the LMII twice) and I feel the Shuttle is clearly louder.

And particularly when used in a single cab--8-ohm configuration. I tested both with a db meter and could not get the LMII to be louder than the Shuttle with any eq preference. That's running it through my own mid-present cabs and even trying it out with a sub to give the LMII an advantage. Tested playing my guitar or running sine waves through it at different frequencies. And using C or A-weighting.

That quick run-up on the LMII's master volume fools a lot of people. What also fools many is the lack of any clip indicator on the LMII power stage (ignorance is bliss) and the Shuttle's early limiting indication when you get within a few db of actual limiting.

Both amps are plenty loud with two cabs but the LMII with a single 8-ohm cab is weak. IMO

 

[svtb15]

I have a Shuttle MAX12 through a pair of 8 ohm cabs.. great light and fast set up...LOUD too!
That may be over kill for you though.
There is a Shuttle 6.0 and a Shutle MAX6.
I really dig the shuttle 6.0. It can do clean tube tone as well as some grind if you like.depending on where you set the input gain knob.... its just a little over 3 pounds and fits in my gig bag pocket.. about the size of a cigar box and a real nice DI. It drives my 2x12s very well..
But if you want more variety in tone, the Shuttle MAX6 would be a good choice of something to try out..it has the same front as the MAX12 but with one power amp section at 375 watts @ 8 ohms. or 600watts at 4 ohms. The FET channel is clean and wide sounding and the TUBE channel will grind away into distortion or just do subtle tube compression if you want...
I was a previous Lead Sled Lover until i bought this amp....

 

[KJung]

"the LMII still outperforms the Shuttle 6.0 in overall volume "

I guess we can agree to disagree--I have had both (in fact have returned the LMII twice) and I feel the Shuttle is clearly louder.

And particularly when used in a single cab--8-ohm configuration. I tested both with a db meter and could not get the LMII to be louder than the Shuttle with any eq preference. That's running it through my own mid-present cabs and even trying it out with a sub to give the LMII an advantage. Tested playing my guitar or running sine waves through it at different frequencies. And using C or A-weighting.

That quick run-up on the LMII's master volume fools a lot of people. What also fools many is the lack of any clip indicator on the LMII power stage (ignorance is bliss) and the Shuttle's early limiting indication when you get within a few db of actual limiting.

Both amps are plenty loud with two cabs but the LMII with a single 8-ohm cab is weak. IMO

You are in the minority here, but again, most have a clear favorite and they are both nice heads, and IMO both relatively unimpressive into an 8ohm cab.

 

[KJung]

+1 on the Shuttle. I was shocked at how much the Gain could get the amp stupid loud and how little the Pre Volume and Master actually did unless the Gain was at least at the 2 o'clock position. I actually have this kind of setup on my Roland DB 700 combo, but it could'nt be more different than night and day. I probably don't understand the logic behind a three knob gain structure correctly; it just does'nt seem very intuitive to me compared to the Carvin which was relatively easy to grt different sounds .

The Shuttle design with the two gain controls and the master makes a lot of design sense to me, it just seems a somewhat poor execution. In theory, since you have a tube preamp, the design is similar to having a tube preamp and separate power amp. You set the initial gain stage for your tone goal (i.e., low for clean, cranked up for grind/snarl), then use the secondary gain control to raise or lower the signal to the optimum level for signal to noise ratio and driving the power amp. However, the pre gain does not really feel or act much like most tube pre's (e.g., the Mesa stuff, where you get significant tonal variation at different pre gain levels), making that secondary gain control kind of useless.

When you combine this with the fact that the input clip light is associated with the first gain stage, not the second, and the power amp clip light comes on so early as to be more confusing to most users than useful, you just have to shake your head a bit at the execution.

That all being said, most have good luck just cranking it up and playing it, and it sounds good, even with those IMO strange design components and choices.

And, the good news is, just like the LMIII improves various performance and feature components of the LMII, the Shuttle Max 6 does the same versus the Shuttle 6 (switching the rather useless voicing buttons to variable controls, and providing a higher gain input level for the tube channel so that it behaves a bit more like you would expect when cranking the first gain stage, and adding a second midrange control with both being semi-paramtric... nice!).

Of course, now there is the LM800Tube, which seems to be yet another significant 'leap ahead' in size, weight, power, features and price. Amazing.

 

[Standalone]

Yes, and although I got enough volume, I just could'nt dial in my usual tone. It was baffling to me because, I thought I had it dialed in at home, then I would get to the gig and spend the rest of the night turning around and twiddling knobs. Just could not get it right. The Shuttle was closer to my tone goals but seem to lack the punch the other two had, and those shape filters are a waste of space, imho. I would swap them in a second for a good compression.

I'm in the LM2-doesn't-do-it-for-me club, too. no worries. I don't have any 8 ohm cabs, so can't help you...

 

[Moondance360]

I've had good luck with the GK MB2-500, with an Avatar neo 2x10. Portable, good volume for small venues, direct out to pa for large gigs

 

[tolson36]

"""You are in the minority here, """

Well, judging from the fact that half of the negative posts on GB products are yours, I'm not so sure about that.

I seem to remember a thread on the GBE 1200 that you were a part of that was proven pretty wrong. Just saying it's louder without any objective numbers proves little.

""The Shuttle design with the two gain controls and the master makes a lot of design sense to me, it just seems a somewhat poor execution. """

On the other hand, the LMII doesn't give you the extra option at all. I guess I'd rather have it than not.

"and the power amp clip light comes on so early as to be more confusing to most users than useful""

I think most users can figure this one out given time (a week or two). Once again, I'd rather have some indicator than none at all like the LMII.

It is quite telling that you never seem to mention while the Shuttle has some quirks that are easily figured out--while the LMII skates by your analysis having no main clip indicator and no extra volume control on the input gain.

I actuallly like the fact that the clip light on the Shuttle provides an early warning--in advance of actual clipping. Peavey power amps have the same sort of configuration which I find to be more useful. On the other, my preference would be to know both.

 

[KJung]

"""You are in the minority here, """

Well, judging from the fact that half of the negative posts on GB products are yours, I'm not so sure about that.

I seem to remember a thread on the GBE 1200 that you were a part of that was proven pretty wrong. Just saying it's louder without any objective numbers proves little.

""The Shuttle design with the two gain controls and the master makes a lot of design sense to me, it just seems a somewhat poor execution. """

On the other hand, the LMII doesn't give you the extra option at all. I guess I'd rather have it than not.

"and the power amp clip light comes on so early as to be more confusing to most users than useful""

I think most users can figure this one out given time (a week or two). Once again, I'd rather have some indicator than none at all like the LMII.

It is quite telling that you never seem to mention while the Shuttle has some quirks that are easily figured out--while the LMII skates by your analysis having no indications (no main clip and no extra volume on the input gain)

Huh!

First, how was I 'wrong' about that 1200 testing? I had posted a long time ago that the 1200 also seemed to not put out the volume and especially low end given the massive power rating and the large size and weight. Then it's tested, and I post... yeah, makes sense, and all of a sudden, I'm 'biased'. Unbelievable!

Second, why would a single channel solid state amp have two input gain controls? That would make no sense whatsoever.

Third.... why would you need a 'clip' light on the power section when there is power amp safely limiting. Totally not needed IMO. However, if there was one, I would hope that it would be set to come on just before there was a 'problem' (i.e., a clip warning light!) However, again with safety limiting, I'm not sure what that problem would be.

Fourth.... every amp has its positives and negatives. I actually use TecAmp gear at the moment. I guess if you think my reviews are biased, I can't really provide any other information except that I am not associated with any company, and always have multiple TBers and other bass players included with my performance testing at lots of GTG's. I love some of the Markbass heads, and dislike others. I hate most of their cabs. I am impressed with the Genz 112 Neox cabs, not so much with the heads I've played. How is that 'biased'? I always try to clearly state my reasons and both positives and negatives.

No big deal. I always look for convergent validity for what I hear with an amp or cab, and also feelings regarding design and feature sets. If a significant number of TBers seem to hear something different than I do, I go back and dig into it again. This rarely has happened though

 

[tolson36]

""""""First, how was I 'wrong' about that 1200 testing I had posted a long time ago that the 1200 also seemed to not put out the volume and especially low end given the massive power rating and the large size and weight. Then it's tested, and I post... yeah, makes sense, and all of a sudden, I'm 'biased'. Unbelievable!"""""

I read it front to back and it was pretty clear there was significant issues with the testing methods. And yes--my reaction after reading that entire thread was also--unbelievable.

"""Third.... why would you need a 'clip' light on the power section when there is power amp safely limiting. Totally not needed IMO. """

safety limiting does not prevent the possibility of SS clipping--only reduces that. Any limiter can allow clipping when run at it's upper limits. That is the reason I beleive the new Shuttle now provides a yellow indication for the start of limiting and a red for actual SS clipping. A have limiters on all my power amps but you can still clip them if you try.

So it appears you are now saying that GB doesn't need a light to show actual clipping then? So your complaint is that they have a light at all? and yet you said "and the power amp clip light comes on too early"

I guess I'm confused as to what you are criticizing them for. In the case of the LMII, it had no clip light and no limiter---and yet that's fine?

 

[KJung]

""""""First, how was I 'wrong' about that 1200 testing I had posted a long time ago that the 1200 also seemed to not put out the volume and especially low end given the massive power rating and the large size and weight. Then it's tested, and I post... yeah, makes sense, and all of a sudden, I'm 'biased'. Unbelievable!"""""

I read it front to back and it was pretty clear there was significant issues with the testing methods. And yes--my reaction after reading that entire thread was also--unbelievable.

"""Third.... why would you need a 'clip' light on the power section when there is power amp safely limiting. Totally not needed IMO. """

safety limiting does not prevent the possibility of SS clipping--only reduces that. Any limiter can allow clipping when run at it's upper limits. That is the reason I beleive the new Shuttle now provides a yellow indication for the start of limiting and a red for actual SS clipping. A have limiters on all my power amps but you can still clip them if you try.

See, that's just me, but I thought it was a good discussion on the 1200. It was also 'interesting' that the testing method didn't seem to impact the other heads

+1... having a clip light that warns you when you are really pushing an amp is a nice to have. Totally agree. I feel not having one is a mild negative for the LMII, and having a clip light designed to, well, I'm not sure what, on the Shuttle is also a mild negative. It wouldn't keep me from buying either head.

The LMII, like any modern SS amp, has a power amp safety limiter. It has been revised and improved on the new LMIII. What gives you the idea there is no power amp limiting?

Again, having a power amp clip light that comes on 6db before clipping makes no sense to me, and does seem to confuse the customer. It again is a minor thing, and would not keep me from buying the amp. It seems like a dumb design, and to your point, no better or worse than not having a clip indicator, which also is a mild negative to me.

These again are both fine heads, which is why I bother posting about them (even though I don't use either of them at the moment). As you notice, I don't even bother with the EA, GK and Carvin micro's. When I don't say anything about an amp in the category I'm primary interested again, you can read a LOT into that!

And.... just like that 1200 thread, I find this a good discussion also. When TBers who have no 'hidden agenda' bang at each other enough, the truth usually emerges!

 

[tolson36]

"""Are you associated with Genz in any way"""

and I guess I could say, are you associated with Markbass?

hey, I'm not the one that must take every opportunity to bash (or defend in my case) the GB heads----you really need to go back and look at your posts if you want to see why someone would get the impression there is an agenda.

"the LMII, like any modern SS amp, has a power amp safety limiter"

not the same thing

"""See, that's just me, but I thought it was a good discussion on the 1200. It was also 'interesting' that the testing method didn't seem to impact the other heads"""

We could revisit that but I got the impression that Bowlus himself finally admitted there were flaws in his testing that could explain the difference. The failure to account for power fluctuations being one. I encourage anyone reading this to go back and read the thread and see if you really think that the 1200 got a fair shake.

 

[KJung]

"""Are you associated with Genz in any way"""

and I guess I could say, are you associated with Markbass?

hey, I'm not the one that must take every opportunity to bash (or defend in my case) the GB heads----you really need to go back and look at your posts if you want to see why someone would get the impression there is an agenda.

"the LMII, like any modern SS amp, has a power amp safety limiter"

not the same thing

"""See, that's just me, but I thought it was a good discussion on the 1200. It was also 'interesting' that the testing method didn't seem to impact the other heads"""

We could revisit that but I got the impression that Bowlus himself finally admitted there were flaws in his testing that could explain the difference. The failure to account for power fluctuations being one. I encourage anyone reading this to go back and read the thread and see if you really think that the 1200 got a fair shake.

I erased that from my post... cheap shot... sorry.

And, the Markbass guys won't even talk to me, since I dislike most of their cabs

That 1200 thing is old news, and if you read it, I was trying to understand the testing methodology also. Again, since the test lined up with my ears, I was 'biased' in that I thought the test was accurate... i.e., that the 1200 puts out about the same oomph as the Mesa M6 (which was also tested in that issue using the same methodology). I've recently A/B'd them, and stand by that assessment. As you remember, the wattage (holding distortion constant), was about the same for both of those heads.

K

 

[tolson36]

no problem

there has apparently yet to be an objective test method that can take us out of the realm of our subjective hearing and into objective measurement.

I don't trust anyone's ears--not even my own.

 

[svtb15]

Shuttle MAX12:
The gain structure actually makes very good sense.. just like a mixing board where you have to match volumes with separate gains.. On a mixing board you will have Input Attenuation Knob and switch or cheap boards will have a gain switch, you will have a per channel slider then you will have BUSS volume and finally a master Mono or Stereo out..

Back to the shuttle.. the Shuttle works especially well when you have two channels FET/TUBE and want to switch, then it makes sense.
The reason being that if you are going to channel switch between FET and TUBE channel the way that i do on gigs at times, you will need to balance the inputs.. Since each channel has a GAIN switch to allow you to overdrive it if you want , you first need to adjust the gain with the first gain knob to get your input .

Let me explain and give an example...

Using my 71 jazz bass with rounds....
I use my FET for clean setting 99% of the time... but i may want an overdrive sound too (which happened when i subbed on a cover gig last week for a friends band.. they did a song by U2 "Magnificent" where they wanted a bass distortion at the top of the tune).... Sort of a Godzilla sound...

So i set my FET for clean and my TUBE channel for Dirty DIRTY... to do Dirty i have to engage the GAIN switch and boost the 1st GAIN knob on the TUBE channel....
But I want the FET channel to be clean for the rest of the song....so i leave the GAIN switch Not engaged on that channel... and get maximum clean level by adjusting the FET 1st GAIN stage...
Once i have my two sounds dialed in,, and channel switch between the two, i realize a volume difference between the two when you bounce back and forth..
So what you need to do is use the 2nd gain knob or Each CHANNEL VOLUME knob to balance the two out....
Its actually very easy and done in 20 seconds once you know what you want..
Then you have your MASTER which is overall output and self explanatory..

So if you channel switch and want to match your Volumes after setting two completely separate gain settings, the GB shuttle gain setting is very well thought out..
and in the real gig sits it worked great on the gig i used it on..
I don't always do that type of gig, but it was fun to do and the amp gave me two amp sound in one 6.5 pound box...

I think that is a fairly good example of how to use it, im sure folks can find a few other ways to use it in much more creative ways than i could imagine..

EDIT:
As the Shuttle 6.0 i found the two gains worked well in a low volume situation.... if i set my main input gain for some tube saturation and then set my second VOLUME at MAX the MASTER volume at perhaps 8 or 9 o'clock.. i have my tone but it may be too loud.... the second knob or channel VOL knob can be used for a fine tweak in overall output without affecting the input gain sound that i was setting and its finer in increments than the MASTER VOL.. so i can leave the MASTER at its 9 o'clock setting and drop the Channel VOL to 12 noon in stead of MAX... its just a finer adjustment and works real well. I have used it like that on gigs where i use my IEMs and only want a little thump in my pants from an amp....

 

[jnewmark]

These again are both fine heads, which is why I bother posting about them (even though I don't use either of them at the moment). As you notice, I don't even bother with the EA, GK and Carvin micro's. When I don't say anything about an amp in the category I'm primary interested again, you can read a LOT into that!

And.... just like that 1200 thread, I find this a good discussion also. When TBers who have no 'hidden agenda' bang at each other enough, the truth usually emerges!

Ken, are you saying " nothing " about the GK and Carvin heads because of all the problems they have had initially, or have you actually tried both of these heads and dislike them for other reasons?