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Best Lightweight Head at 8 ohms

Beat lightweight head at 8 ohms

  • GB Shuttle 6.0

    Votes: 40 29.9%
  • Carvin BX 500

    Votes: 18 13.4%
  • MarkBass Little Mark ll

    Votes: 53 39.6%
  • Other

    Votes: 23 17.2%

  • Total voters
    134
to assume that one company will work out the bugs, & to assume that one company will not is absurd at best

Not only is it NOT absurd.... its reality!
I've worked with or know of bigger companies who put out a
bass or amp that has real issues. Instead of stopping the
production and starting over, they just figure they might
work out the issue on the next run. Or, if not enough people
complain, they just leave it and deal with it on an individual
basis.
We at Talkbass are very fortunate to have a fairly large and
usually unified voice for our gear issues. Before Talkbass, it
was just "you" calling or writing a company to tell them about
a problem or defect. It was much easier to deal with a
customer on a one on one basis, instead of changing the
manufacturing process or retooling for something. With the
advent of Talkbass, bassists got a much more unified voice.

Without naming names, I know of major companies who have
put product out knowing of problems, but put it out anyway
because of the money they've already spent. Unfortunately,
many of us aren't as sophisticated as we could be when it
comes to how our gear works, or even know when something
isn't working right. I know great players, doing major gigs, who
know little or nothing about their gear. They just want to get
something so they can get to the playing. Choosing gear just
gets in the way.
Again, their are major companies who let problems go out the
door hoping not enough people will complain, so they don't
have to fix it. As for me..... Long live Talkbass!
 
Ken,

As far as I can see Carvin's got their problems sorted out {other than swapping with people who got early ones, and paranoids who never noticed what their previous setup did, and are convinced they might have a problem when in fact it's their bass shielding or something like that ; } ...I'd buy one if I were in the market for a mini.

I haven't followed GK threads, but I'd sure hope they are on it too. They seem to have cared about previous products and customers.
 
I believe both companies issued call tags for returned shipping on defective units. My problem was, the one they sent me in return was worse than the first one, so I opted for a refund and went with the Shuttle. I would'nt hesitate to buy the Carvin now.
 
Not only is it NOT absurd.... its reality!
...
Again, their are major companies who let problems go out the
door hoping not enough people will complain, so they don't
have to fix it. As for me..... Long live Talkbass!

Sad to say I totally believe this.

Hopefully the companies get their penalties when customers don't come back to buy in the future. But, there's is always some people who just buy by "name" and are brand loyal no matter what.
 
Not only is it NOT absurd.... its reality!
I've worked with or know of bigger companies who put out a
bass or amp that has real issues. Instead of stopping the
production and starting over, they just figure they might
work out the issue on the next run. Or, if not enough people
complain, they just leave it and deal with it on an individual
basis.
We at Talkbass are very fortunate to have a fairly large and
usually unified voice for our gear issues. Before Talkbass, it
was just "you" calling or writing a company to tell them about
a problem or defect. It was much easier to deal with a
customer on a one on one basis, instead of changing the
manufacturing process or retooling for something. With the
advent of Talkbass, bassists got a much more unified voice.

Without naming names, I know of major companies who have
put product out knowing of problems, but put it out anyway
because of the money they've already spent. Unfortunately,
many of us aren't as sophisticated as we could be when it
comes to how our gear works, or even know when something
isn't working right. I know great players, doing major gigs, who
know little or nothing about their gear. They just want to get
something so they can get to the playing. Choosing gear just
gets in the way.
Again, their are major companies who let problems go out the
door hoping not enough people will complain, so they don't
have to fix it. As for me..... Long live Talkbass!



don't really care what used to happen in days gone by i'm talking current production runs, not ancient history

people here seem to think carvin cares, & will sort out their problems, while GK could care less, where do you get these assumptions ? it just sounds like personal propaganda to me :(

i see Bob Gallien a CURRENT TB member & some of his staff here talking about customer problems & how to quickly rectify the issues, that's what sells me on a company and it's products

is mr carvin a TB member ? is there a friggin mr carvin ? :rollno:

you're obviously not up to speed with what's going on currently, step out of the past <<< an assumption on my part :)
 
don't really care what used to happen in days gone by i'm talking current production runs, not ancient history

people here seem to think carvin cares, & will sort out their problems, while GK could care less, where do you get these assumptions ? it just sounds like personal propaganda to me :(

i see Bob Gallien a CURRENT TB member & some of his staff here talking about customer problems & how to quickly rectify the issues, that's what sells me on a company and it's products

is mr carvin a TB member ? is there a friggin mr carvin ? :rollno:

you're obviously not up to speed with what's going on currently, step out of the past <<< an assumption on my part :)

Actually, although there is no " MR. Carvin ", reps from Carvin do post here,( Jeff Keisel, for one ) and have been answering and taking care of problems with the new BX500. I know because I sent back two of those heads with no problems whatsoever. And, from what I can glean from the two threads, the problems with the Carvin head seem to be less ocurring, but the GK still seems to have issues. OTOH, I don't think either company would would purposely let new product out knowing there were problems unsolved with the item . That's just bad business and both companies have been around a long time for that to ever happen.
 
Actually, although there is no " MR. Carvin ", reps from Carvin do post here,( Jeff Keisel, for one ) and have been answering and taking care of problems with the new BX500. I know because I sent back two of those heads with no problems whatsoever. And, from what I can glean from the two threads, the problems with the Carvin head seem to be less ocurring, but the GK still seems to have issues. OTOH, I don't think either company would would purposely let new product out knowing there were problems unsolved with the item . That's just bad business and both companies have been around a long time for that to ever happen.

thank you, for seeing it the way it is & not putting your personal biased opinionated spin on it

both companies put out a new product

both companies have had various issues with the product

both companies have had very unsatisfied customers

both companies have had very satisfied customers

both companies have staff here on TB trying to rectify the problems & solve any issue in a timely manner



imo, if you spin it any other way, as i stated earlier, it's just personal propaganda :rollno: but feel free to do so nonetheless :(
 
you're obviously not up to speed with what's going on currently, step out of the past <<< an assumption on my part :)

FWIW I've seen exactly the pattern he described happening in the very recent past, like within the last year or two, from some highly respected brands. Aguilar is one example.

I use Carvin gear but I have had problems with some of it. In cases where they were able to, Carvin tried to help. I would be interested in the GK micro head except for the problems people have had with it. I gather Gallien's people are here and will try to help. So what personal propaganda was being expressed?

Seems to me the fault is with decisions made by the people in these companies that are shoving unfinished or rush-designed products out the door in order to meet a deadline, not with CS reps who have to clean up the mess afterward, and not with the posts from people who have had good/bad experiences handling these problems with a certain brand.
 
Please let me clarify some incorrect and misleading information that is being presented in this discussion. First of all, I am the engineer of record for the Shuttle and GBE products, so I am absolutely qualified to comment on the specifications and design intent of our products.

1. IMPO, the original testing methodology used for the "BGM" tests was so flawed as to produce worse than meaningless results. Line voltage must be held at 120 volts to produce the rated output, this is true (in general) of most amp products by most manufacturers. The problem with the tests is that the voltage drop is due to the current being drawn and the big (linear) amps that have no VI limiting will always draw more current and the output power will fall off by the SQUARE of the input power voltage drop. So, the bigger the amp, the greater the deviation (by exactly the square) between their measured power and the rated power at 120 volts. It was unfortunate that their technician did not appreciate the importance of the squared factor flaw in his test. Since the GBE-1200 was the largest amp tested, it showed the greatest deviation. I performed the testing on the same amp here at my R&D lab with proper equipment and found that it passed the power spec with no problems at all, and that IIRC the line voltage would have had to fall to roughly 109 volts to replicate their invalid data. There were also significant measurement errors that we discovered after the magazine was released that ANY engineer worth his salt would have seen as an impossible value, but the technician did not understand why the number didn't make sense. (extra credit... identify the flawed measurements). Also, you can not use purely distortion numbers for powet testing thresholds on musical instrument amplifiers because many of the functions inherent in tube amp stages and emulation processes generate harmonics. I wonder how an all tube amp would have faired in this test... probably not well because the base line distortion would quickly exceed the measurement cutoff threshold.

2. The power versus frequency test was so inaccurate and meaningless as to make me question what the tech was trying to quantify. The only thing this produced was a frequency response profile which matches the preamp's inherent voicing. The power amp delivers full rated power from 20Hz on up, and any (intentional) rolloff or boosts in the preamp would of course be reflected in the corresponding output levels of the power amp. This is how amps work, not rocket science. Additionally, the tech did not do this measurement with the LF extend filter engaged, which extends and alters the low frequency rolloff point down. This function (switch out) is useful for players who must tame challenging rooms or will be playing with compact cabinets and want to avoid overexcursion.

3. The limiting function was not engaged, and the tech did not understand one of the fundamental design features of the amp. ALL of my output limiters are multi-function in that they emulate how a tube power amp overloads from the gradual rolling into soft clipping and then a dB or two later (after about 3-6dB of input level) another transition as the power amp begins to actually clip. This is well described in the owner's manual but clearly not comprehended. This feature is something I have used in various forms for well over 20 years now. This function increases the area under the power curve (hence an increase in power) while controlling the addition of higher ordered harmonics. It requires a true RMS meter that looks at the real power, not based on an extrapolated sine wave conversion.

4. Regarding the way the Shuttle gain and volume controls work... the execution is exactly as we intended it to work and how most of our customers use it. The Shuttle 6.0 is not designed to do the heavy overdrive thing, the tube circuit gain is adequate to getthe tube flavor and mild grind from most pickups, and with higher output pickups it is certainly possible to get significant overdrive. If the heavy overdrive thing is what you want, use a booster (preamp) pedal with ~12dB of additional gain. The ShuttleMax has this additional gain built into the high gain switch function, so it's more appropriate (without a pedal) for getting the heavy overdrive thing going. The tapers for the controls is to allow a good feel and operating range with a wide variety of today's pickup levels.

5. The CLIP/LIMIT LED has 2 function, the first is to indicate that the player has crossed the threshold of the output tube emulation limiter and that there is roughly 6dB of compliance left before output stage clipping is approached. It is an INFORMATIONAL indicator so that you as a player know where you are operating the power amp before you run out of steam. IMO, it is an important and useful bit of information that if understood makes perfect and logical sense.

From my discussions with Tom and his new engineer, I understand that they too have determined that testing amps in a meaningful way is much more difficult than it seems on the surface and that they are in the process of reformulating thesting procedures and propocols. I have spent almost 30 years learning everything I possibly could about REAL WORLD amplifier performance and how each variable impacts the player and the tone. I also split my design projects between musical instrument amps and full-on pro audio products, so I have a pretty wide angle view of how things work. I ask that you all consider that sometimes reviews are not accurate for whatever reason, and testing errors and methodology affects every manufacturer differently depending on their particular design philosophy. By the way, it hurts me to see a competitor's product bashed in a review when it's basd on invalid or inaccurate testing methodology too. It's just not good for anybody, including you the consumer. Play as many products as you can and buy what works for YOU, even if it's not our product. That's ok, really ;)

Regarding point #4, this is some very useful and insightful information about the tonal differences between the Shuttle and the SMax and would be useful in the sales literature. It really clarifies what a customer can expect from each product.
While I like the bit of grit available with the Shuttle, it sounds like the Max might extend that tone road a bit further.

Regarding the GBE 1200, from the couple I've heard, they sound really good and could likely flatten a small village with the right cab. If it sounds that good and produces enough volume, then test numbers don't carry nearly as much meaning. I have a hard time conceptualizing a real-life gigging situation where a 1200 might fall short on volume.