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Best Lightweight Head at 8 ohms

Beat lightweight head at 8 ohms

  • GB Shuttle 6.0

    Votes: 40 29.9%
  • Carvin BX 500

    Votes: 18 13.4%
  • MarkBass Little Mark ll

    Votes: 53 39.6%
  • Other

    Votes: 23 17.2%

  • Total voters
    134
Please let me clarify some incorrect and misleading information

This is some great information.
I wouldn't mind seeing this information on the Genz Benz site. Presented a little different like "Here are our measurements" and "This is how and why we measured it this way"

It would sure help people when comparing your ratings to another brand. User visiting Genz Benz may actually notice Genz Benz is open and honest with their specs and publish their techniques on deriving their measurements. They might even wonder why other brands don't do this, Leaving it up to reviewers to provide this measurements.
 
I have a gbe1200, and to date i have not run into a situation where the amp under performed to what i thought it should do.. from concert settings where i believe they set up quad 30 amp drops... to bar gigs...
If im doing a bar gig i will as often as possible plug my amp into an outlet that no one else is in. i have always done that since i used my crown macro/pre set up years ago... it may be on the same line as something across the stage but so far i have not had an issue... and the 1200 could easily take out a pair of GS112s in a puff of smoke if i let it...
I have been using the MAX12 for a while now and have been really digging this thing.
 
For now, our new tests still rely upon unregulated power (as we do feel that most players in the field will not be plugged into a regulated power supply),

Tom.

IMHO, since you're using this as a rationale for real-world applications, you should also use a reactive load.
 
IMHO, since you're using this as a rationale for real-world applications, you should also use a reactive load.

Good point. Long-term, that is exactly what we would like to do. The sticky widget currently is what load do you use for the testing?

Results may vary depending upon the load used in a reactive test, and if we end up running our full suite of tests at multiple loads (and then repeating some or all of these tests with both regulated and unregulated power), it could be very time consuming.
 
The sticky widget currently is what load do you use for the testing?

yeah....to be honest, since I'm not an engineer...I don't know. Intuition would tell me that as long as it is "consistant", that would work......as a base line. Not bass line. :bassist:

Seriously though, I'll let an engineer answer that.
 
Good point. Long-term, that is exactly what we would like to do. The sticky widget currently is what load do you use for the testing?

Results may vary depending upon the load used in a reactive test, and if we end up running our full suite of tests at multiple loads (and then repeating some or all of these tests with both regulated and unregulated power), it could be very time consuming.

Keep with the classic resistive load testing. From everything I've read, that puts each amp on a level playing field, and every other amp you've tested seems to have been very close to its published power spec, even the Carvin B1500 tested without a regulated power supply:smug:

Here is an example that is represetative of most of the testing literature I tried to wade through in the past:

****
You must use a non-reactive load, however, when testing an amplifier for power output, because the power measurement is only accurate into a purely resistive load. If you are using a reactive load, the actual output power is equal to the voltage multiplied by the current, multiplied by the cosine of the phase angle between them. Highly inductive or capacitive loads can fool you into thinking you have a higher output power than you really do, because, even though the voltage is higher, the current is not in phase with it, so the real power output cannot be accurately determined by measuring the voltage, squaring it, and dividing by the specified impedance, you must multiply by the cosine of the phase angle. A purely resistive load will have the voltage and current in phase, so the cosine of the phase angle is equal to 1, and can be ignored.

*****

This quickly gets over my head, but I've yet to run across an article that recommends a reactive load to evaluate power output, especially when comparing one amp to another.


That all being said, use your ears!!! That's the best thing!
 
even the Carvin B1500 tested without a regulated power supply:smug:

To be fair, the Carvin was tested with the new procedures (developed by Tom Lees after he came on board) and the Genz-Benz was tested with the old procedures. I would hesitate to make any comparison between those two sets of results until the Genz-Benz has been tested using the same procedures as the Carvin.

Tom.
 
To be fair, the Carvin was tested with the new procedures (developed by Tom Lees after he came on board) and the Genz-Benz was tested with the old procedures. I would hesitate to make any comparison between those two sets of results until the Genz-Benz has been tested using the same procedures as the Carvin.

Tom.

Cool. Again, since the other amps tested using the old method hit pretty close to their published spec, and given my experience with all these amps, along with the literature that says rating an amp into a reactive load can give you pretty much any wattage spec you want depending on the load, my guess is things won't change that much. I guess it really doesn't matter one way or the other.
 
Oh, and just to clarify, if we were to incorporate a dynamic power test (reactive load), we would most likely still keep the resistive load test.

I would guess there would be very few amps that would somehow 'fail' a reactive load test. Wouldn't the result of a reactive test almost always show more power than the resistive load test?
 
Hey Ken, can you point me to the threads regarding the EA problems. I did a search and came up empty. I have been checking out their new micro and would like to get the +/- of this amp before I dive in. Thanks.
 
Hey Ken, can you point me to the threads regarding the EA problems. I did a search and came up empty. I have been checking out their new micro and would like to get the +/- of this amp before I dive in. Thanks.

It's impossible to search for EA given the search engine limitations, etc., so I would have no idea how to find all those threads over the past couple of years.
 
Oh......my bad. I thought you were referring to the new "silver" series that EA has just released. I have the iamp800 which works flawlessly ( thank goodness) but am still on the hunt for a true "micro" amp.
 
I would guess there would be very few amps that would somehow 'fail' a reactive load test. Wouldn't the result of a reactive test almost always show more power than the resistive load test?

Ok, let me explain what a reactive load is and how amplifiers work into reactive loads before everybody gets confused by misunderstandings again...

1. A reactive load is any load where the voltage and current are not in phase according to Ohms Law equation V=I*Z.

2. A resistive load is any load where the voltage and current are in phase according to Ohms Law equation V=I*Z. In this condition, Z = R

3. The power delivered to a reactive load where V and I are defined at the same magnitude is P = V * I * cos phase angle, will ALWAYS be less than the resistive power except at the condition where the phase angle is equal to zero which is the very definition of a resistive load and cos(0) = 1.

4. When measuring and explaining reactive power, the math can become complicated because the voltage and the current each have a phase angle associated with them in addition to the usual magnatude that is present for resistive measurements. This math is called complex math and the numbers have a real part (magnitude) and an imaginary part (vector direction) There are numerical and graphical ways to solve these equations to explain what is happening.

5. The reason why reactive power is important when designing an amplifier is because all of the device design safety margins must include calculations that consider the enegry stored in the imaginary portion of the measureements. Here's something that generally blows people's mind regarding reactive power and Ohm's law. It is absolutely possible to have current flow with zero voltage. Since 99.99% of folks are only familiar with the simplified Ohm's Law, I=V/R... then how is it possible for I to be a finite value with V = 0. It's due to the energy stored in the reactive elements of the load that are released under these conditions. This bit of information is so essential to amplifier design that it's shocking how few musical instrument amps consider the importance in their designs.

6. To design for these reactive conditions, a reactive load line, or adjustments to the resistive calculations must be used to insure adequate safety margin between operational conditions and the transition into failure conditions (called the SOAR or safe operating area region on power devices). This requires additional output silicon as well as the drive capacity to drive them. Most manufacturers use a circuit called a VI limiter that limits the current to a safe (non-destructive) value ifthis current is exceeded and is referenced indirectly to the voltage across the device. SO, it is critical to understand the VI relationship of the complex math involved. Othewise the amplifier will prematurely limit... and there are plenty that do just this.

7. Reactive conditions are such a serious issue that all amplifiers contain protective backswing diodes so that if there is an intermittent connection, or activation of the VI limiter, the stored enegry in the speaker voice coil (immersed in a magnetic field) does not discharge back into the power supply and cause a voltage rise above Vcc and destroy the output transistors from exceeding Vce.

8. The difficulty faced with developing a test for reactive power is determining what reactive load to use. This must have a resistive component (typically equal to the DC resistance of a voice coil) and a reactive component that would be the high Q inductance component of the voice coil, plus whatever crossover and tweeter components present. Then the resulting waveform must be monitored for voltage, current and phase angle AT VARIOUS FREQUENCIES in order to develop a reactive power curve.

Frankly, anybody who has followed and understood this discussion would already understand how much work would be involved and in the big picture how meaningless to the average player this information really is. For those who did not understand this would be more confused than ever with yet another complex rating method. The rating method needs to be simple to understand in order to be useful to most folks.

I haven't solved complex math equations for probably 25 years, but I understand in excrutiating detail how the fundamental principles work. That's what my engineering degree taught me. I also learned that for each person that understands this, there are 1000 people that don't give a rat's ass about it, and rightly so. We must cater to the 1000 people, not the one for a general bass player oriented magazine IMO.

In my next post, I will discuss an alternate testing methodology that is probably the most useful in that it gives a lot of information is a relatively simple, easy to understand test. It gives a lot more information than a reactive test, a non-regulated voltage test, a power versus frequency test (that is just so flawed as to be incredulous), etc.
 
Note that when comparing amps in an A/B testing situation, you can not definitably assign a cause or a reason for why one amp sounds different (better or worse), as there are many, many possible causes and the common misunderstandings of the basic technical aspects of an amp are usually translated into incorrect reasons that seem to follow a "old wives tale" methodology that bears little if any relationship to reality IME.

In order to assign a cause, a real analysis must be done. To make up a reason, even if you really believe it, is both misleading and dishonest IMO.
 
Agedhorse, this has been very interesting and educational.

Can you give us eager little nerdlings some idea (perhaps using an example) of the relationship between the phase angle of the reactive load and its effect on real-world amplifier power? As I dabble in bass cab designs, I don't want to unwittingly paint myself into a corner...

Thanks!
 
90 degres would be a purely reactive load. Unlikely to see anything this severe. In general, the worst case is closer to 45 degrees, lagging (meaning the current lags the voltage, an inductive condition). Multiply the power by cosine 45 and that's your worst case real power.

Lagging power factor is where the current lags the voltage and is inductive. Leading power factor is where the current leads the voltage and is capacitive.

As an interesting excercise, look at the impedance diagram of a speaker cabinet. You will see areas where the impedance increases with frequency and areas where the impedance decreases with frequency. This is indicitive of increaesing and decreasing inductive effects, and they can be modified by the electromechanical action of the driver operating in a tuned spring-mass box too!!!

Generally, we see very little capacitive loading by a speaker cabinet except where an idiot has incorrectly designed (or assembled) a crossover. These special products are called amp killers by amp engineers, and we (at least some of us) have our own secret wepons to deal with them. Note to speaker designers... never design a crossover with a net capacitive load to an amp... you will cause your customer much expensive grief and let the magic smoke out of the amp.
 
Very much appreciated. Cosine 45 = .707, which translates to about 30% loss of power when the impedance phase angle is 45 degrees.

Agedhorse, in the second post in the linked thread I took my best shot at answering a question about impedance, and I may have been totally wrong. Would you mind taking a look and correcting if necessary?

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=546183

Thanks.