• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Best Mesa-Boogie Bass heads

Ummm, yeah that text is really confusing and full of technical errors. It’s what happens when guitar amp guys try to explain something and go astray.

That’s from before my time, and one reason why the new manuals are written by bass oriented guys.
 
Ummm, yeah that text is really confusing and full of technical errors. It’s what happens when guitar amp guys try to explain something and go astray.

That’s from before my time, and one reason why the new manuals are written by bass oriented guys.
Thanks for weighing in on this because I have been staring at it for half an hour and it didn't seem accurate to me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BlueTalon
I've been enjoying an M9 for a little over a year now, and have recently been diving into understanding the rotary eq better, having just bought some very different speakers than I have been using for the past 15 years or so.

I'm curious (honestly, not trying to argue) about referring to it as a Fender style eq. I've seen some comments in past threads here and elsewhere that mention the mids as being cut only, like the classic Fender 3 band. The manual refers to it as boost-only. Yes, it's passive, but that is not an indicator of cut-only, as we're used to on instrument tone controls. I think it really just means that there are no op-amps or other energized components in that portion of the circuit (anyone correct me, please). I've quite happily been running it at noon, because there's a detent there and I didn't clock that portion of the manual until very recently. The way the transients jump out of the speakers, yet lack any harshness is really, really satisfying.

I am a bit unsure of the accuracy of any info on the mid circuit - I wonder if there was a mistake in the copy, because it mentions being a boost only, but also saying that it can remove this band from the signal - that could just be a somewhat vague reference to relative positions on the control.

The bass and high circuits (which are active, unlike the Fender) also seem much more sophisticated than the Fender and I assume (without checking) that the frequency centers are not the same. Boosting and cutting don't just provide a mirror image response curve - there are shelving and H/LPFs working together that are incredibly versatile and usable.

Here's the copy from the manual:


BASS: This control is responsible for the basic mix of low frequencies in the tube pre-amp. The BASS control is an active shelving type control as opposed to a passive style control. This means that a center Q point has been chosen and this control allows you to either boost or cut that frequency. This control differs from the low bands of the Graphic in that it has a broader Q point with a more gentle ramp as opposed to the Graphic’s narrow Q.

The BASS control is actually a gain and frequency control all rolled into one with the Q center at 55Hz and harmonics in both low and high directions are affected because of its broader band nature. As the control is increased past 12:00 there is a 6db per octave rise in gain with the frequency topping out at 321Hz. With 12:00 straight-up representing “flat” (a no boost/no cut setting). As the BASS control is dialed below 12:00, 55Hz and all associated harmonics are reduced and eventually notched completely out of the signal. Conversely, there is a 6db per octave cut beginning at 55Hz going down to 20Hz where the shelving ends with a cut gain of -20db as the control approaches 7:30 (off).

This type of broad band, active rotary control makes it possible to achieve bass characteristics far beyond that of a conventional passive type control. It can increase the low end to an almost absurd level and with a flick of the wrist, dip it to near transistor radio skinniness. Needless to say, with any control this powerful a certain amount of finesse must be applied to achieve musical results. Be especially mindful of this when using the 5 Band Parametric in conjunction with the BASS control.


PULL DEEP: The CARBINE features a pull shift for the BASS control that allows you to choose between two different regions of low end and affects how the control will react.

When the control is pushed in (normal) the bass frequencies are higher and a cut-off is employed so that below a certain point, sub-low frequencies are not part of the mix. This results in a tighter, faster feeling response that is more articulate and will stand out and be heard in a live stage environment. This also works well for recording scenarios where the Bass part needs to sync-up with a complex kick drum line or anytime you need a defined, punchy sound that won’t get lost as the layers of other parts get applied.

PULL DEEP (control pulled out) allows the entire range of low frequencies to pass and fill in the curves creating a warm, rich sound that is foundational for smaller groups. Along with these deeper lows, a subtle enhancement of the super-high frequencies is added to create a round, breathing cushion of air the whole band can ride. Be sure to check out this setting for three-piece Rock or Blues combos and playing R & B styles where you need to add juice to thumbing parts.

MID:

This is the only passive style control in the string of rotary tone controls. This scheme was chosen for its inherently musical blend and for the way the passive style midrange control, with its wide spread and smooth taper, fills in the holes. Unlike the BASS, this control is a boost only, and while it can competently remove this broad spectrum of midrange from the mix, it cannot provide the extreme attenuation of an active style control.

You will find, as we did, that this control works amazingly well for shaping the midrange frequencies with a natural earthiness and character that is a perfect counterpart to its neighbors. It is hard to dial wrong with this more forgiving control as it seems to give you just enough and no more.

For radical and specific scooping of the midrange frequencies for modern R&B and Funk styles, there is plenty of notching power that is infinitely more accurate to be found in the GRAPHIC EQ. Because of this, we opted for the tried and true passive style midrange control that has been working great in all of our amplifiers for decades. It’s hard to improve on a classic.

TREBLE: The TREBLE is also an active shelving style control like that found in the BASS and again, it was chosen for its ability to radically shape the upper harmonic region. Like the BASS, it also has a center Q point with harmonics above and below responding in harmony as it is dialed for either cut or boost.

As the control is increased past 12:00, it produces a 6db per octave rise in gain starting at 723Hz until +20db is reached. From this point, gain remains constant at +20db for all frequencies above 723Hz all the way out to 20Khz. This scheme lends a sweetness of sound while retaining all the necessary cut and focus associated with a traditional passive TREBLE control. As this control is dialed below 12:00, it begins a 6db per octave cut from 3.2Khz to the shelving point at 723Hz, where it continues to attenuate all frequencies above 723Hz until - 20db is reached where cut gain remains constant until the control reaches 7:30 (off). The ability to cut these frequencies more radically makes it possible to obtain incredibly rich and warm old-school R&B and Jazz sounds that rival any recordings of the day.

This active shelving TREBLE control completes the rotary tone control string to create a powerful and extremely accurate network to use as your fundamental platform. It’s no wonder many first time CARBINE players make the comment that just these controls combined with the GAIN create the best tone they have ever heard!

NOTE: As with the BASS control, may we remind you that a control of this type with its increased power should be used with finesse.

In the TREBLE’S case, almost more so, because higher frequencies seem louder to the ear and are generally more painful when set to extremes. Another reason to use care is that high frequencies tend to increase the ambient noise floor when set too high. This is then exacerbated if the ACTIVE MID is combined for added top end boost. Dial with care and music in mind.
Thanx for the perspective, maybe Fender tone stack is not the best way to describe it. In application, it’s all up to the ears. And I love what I’m hearing. I stopped using the graphic eq as an always-on feature and now just use it to cut in response to acoustics of different rooms / venues.
 
Thanx for the perspective, maybe Fender tone stack is not the best way to describe it. In application, it’s all up to the ears. And I love what I’m hearing. I stopped using the graphic eq as an always-on feature and now just use it to cut in response to acoustics of different rooms / venues.
There's a LOT more going on than just a Fender tone stack, though the (native) voicing is loosely inspired by such.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ellery and Al Kraft
Ummm, yeah that text is really confusing and full of technical errors. It’s what happens when guitar amp guys try to explain something and go astray.

That’s from before my time, and one reason why the new manuals are written by bass oriented guys.
It did seem kind of... unique to me. Thanks for your insight. I'm familiar with that problem from my time at Yorkville. I know it's ancient from your business perspective, but I'm really curious to know what it's doing. It's working for me just fine, but my brain feels happier knowing this stuff for some reason.
 
Mesa has made bass amps with lot's of different personalities. Which sounds best depends on you what you like.
I don't doubt that, but the people who write descriptions in the sales catalogues provide nothing whatsoever of value. It's inconceivable to determine a sound preference from marketing hype.
If the various Mesa heads have different sound characteristics, that's great, but its not possible comprehend and align synergy to your individual tastes.
I have never seen any subway equipment, ever, and I am in a heavy gigging area with 120-140 bands working every night. No stores within that area carry Mesa equipment so it makes it more difficult to learn more about the products.
I am sure I'm not "Robinson Caruso" in that regard. It's just the purchasing climate we have these days. Same for guitars. Most stores cater for musicians that bring their parents in to pay for it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wasnex
It did seem kind of... unique to me. Thanks for your insight. I'm familiar with that problem from my time at Yorkville. I know it's ancient from your business perspective, but I'm really curious to know what it's doing. It's working for me just fine, but my brain feels happier knowing this stuff for some reason.
The tone control section is similar to the Walkabout, conventional shelving bass-treble combined with a passive mid section similar to what the Fender tone stack does, it a hybrid solution.

There are some additional tone shaping elements too.
 
It did seem kind of... unique to me. Thanks for your insight. I'm familiar with that problem from my time at Yorkville. I know it's ancient from your business perspective, but I'm really curious to know what it's doing. It's working for me just fine, but my brain feels happier knowing this stuff for some reason.
That’s part of why I was recruited by Mesa 11 years ago, to take the vas product line to a new level in performance, reliability and documentation.

I then brought Al Kraft and the late Alan Loughbaugh (Chef) on to help insure that the owners manuals are player friendly, the feature sets are player friendly, and we have a few players who have extensive hands on experience who can also help other players here on TB from a player’s perspective. (I’m not a bass player, just a mediocre keyboard player)

We have added a new test player recently, you all know him and when the time is right I’ll introduce him. His extensive gigging experience expands on styles that we already cover.
 
Indeed, there are some parts that are no longer available for the legacy models, specifically the MOSFETs and some of the pots & switches (depending on the model). While we currently have good stock on the older eq sliders, the original manufacture got out of the slide pot business 2 years ago with no warning and these were a fairly unique part physically and we used a LOT of them (like hundreds of thousands) in the guitar amps in addition to the bass amps.

This is one of the challenges of maintaining amps that are 20+ years old, when the manufacturers stop producing parts that are unique or were never big sellers, they become difficult (or impossible) to find.
I have a BB750 that is collecting dust for 5 years. One of the power blocks has some burned mosfets, and as I live in Brazil, people can't find parts to repair. I contacted mesa if I could send just the faulty block, they said I could only send the entire amp. As it weights 19 kgs, the shipping costs more than a new amp, so it is sitting on the corner looking to my TH500 and AG700, but damn I miss the BB750
 
We don’t repair power blocks except possibly for our factory authorized service centers. Too many issues with other undiagnosed problems.

The MOSFETS are expensive parts and depending on the version used in your particular amp, may not be available which requires replacing all of them with what we have in stock or can get (and not reliably available).

I have mentioned this issue several times here, the original manufacturers of the part discontinued the lateral MOSFET semiconductor process.
 
  • Like
Reactions: alema and WRM
We don’t repair power blocks except possibly for our factory authorized service centers. Too many issues with other undiagnosed problems.

The MOSFETS are expensive parts and depending on the version used in your particular amp, may not be available which requires replacing all of them with what we have in stock or can get (and not reliably available).

I have mentioned this issue several times here, the original manufacturers of the part discontinued the lateral MOSFET semiconductor process.
Do you have any tips of what I can do about it. Is there a more available mosfet I can use, even if I have to change all of them?
I can't sell it for spare parts, as there are so little of this amps here.
 
The lack of parts availability is the reason we discontinued all amp models that used lateral MOSFETs.

Usually we can fix the amps at the factory, but not always (if we don’t have and can’t get the parts), and sometimes not economically.

Sorry about this.
 
I have to say the the Prodigy was the one I really liked and regretting I sold it. The 400 with 6550s was like a like a Fender Showman on Channel 1 and more like a Marshall bass head on Channel 2 with the underlying 6550 tonality of the power section when cranked. The Prodigy had a 5 position voicing control and that was it's superpower. If you want nasty the D-180 was awesome for that. The Carbines were certainly powerhouses and I think were their answer to the GK RBs/ I think they had tube preamps - I am not entirely sure but they had that Mosfet kick. As a Mesa Boogie guitar amp fanboi, I really should have Subways by now but Andy's Genz Benz's Streamliner design stopped my desire. My plan is to get the cabs first. Maybe when my EA Whizzy's croak
Love my prodigy

PXL_20230320_202424771.jpg