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Best octave down pedal for two piece w/baritone gtr?

S

Southtwin

Nov 11, 2019
55
42
#1
First Talkbass post ever here! I'm putting together a melodic doom/sludge/postrock two piece, somewhere between Windhand and Big Business with bits of Sonic Youthyness. I'm playing a Jazzmaster baritone tuned to A with drop G on low string through Ampeg PF-20T and Crown power amp to a 1x15 and 2x10 Ampeg cabs, will probably add more cabs and maybe amp for stereo soonish. Pedals right now are just Tight Fuzz Bass, T21 XXL Bass, and Caline 10 band eq.

I want the power chord parts to be massive thick and room filling to a very low register without being turdy mud, but still want the higher weird chord shape parts to have quite a bit of definition. Not a huge fan of the octave up chiminess, but would like a bit more low register coverage than I'm getting now.

Micro POG seems like obvious choice from a bit of poking around, but started getting overwhelmed from seeing Pitchfork, Subnup, DOD meatbox, Aguilar, Mantic, and others on forums. Also thought about Whammy V but I don't like that you can't blend the sub with dry. Any thoughts would be vrry appreciated!!

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#4
Any of the POGs, Pitchfork or Ring Thing work well.

The DigiTech Whammy V can do it too but the lack of blend limits that pedal.

All of these will Track down to the Low A of your Bari.

I like that you tuned it to A, I think it makes more sense as an instrument family tuning the lowest strings like

Contrabass A0
Bass E1
Baritone A1
Guitar E2
 
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#5
The issue with octave pedals is spectral density. In the guitar range, you can have chords with 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, and they don't sound bad - the difference/beat frequencies are high enough that you can hear them, they make musical sense, and they won't put too many demands on your gear. Do that in the lowest octave of a bass, though, and things get ugly pretty quick. So, if you take a guitar (a low tuned one at that), play what you normally do, and try to add an octave pedal, it won't be pretty - there will be too many notes in the lowest octave.

There's a reason bass players don't play close harmonies in the lowest octave, and it's not 'cause we aren't good guitarists, it's because it sounds bad. The division of guitarists doing what makes sense in their range, and bassists doing what makes sense in theirs is a good, rational thing. If you decide you want to go ahead, and use an octave pedal to do the lowest octave, just know you'll have to re-learn - you'll have to play differently/ more sparsely, for it to work.

There'a guy from a band called Local H that does kinda what you want to do. His guitar had 5 strings that are normal, and the lowest one (tuned an octave lower, I think) has a separate pickup that he runs through a separate rig - he's playing bass and guitar at the same time (sorta), but he separates the different ranges to deal with the issue I'm talking about.
 
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#6
I've been thinking that might be an issue, and actually wondered if any octave pedals have some kind of frequency cutoff where it stops doubling above a certain freq. Any ideas on that?

I remember liking that "keep it copacetic" Local H song when I was 13 haha, that would be a sweet setup but sounds like more custom engineering than I'd really like to get into..
 
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#7
Any of the polyphonic octaves will work fine. All that business about playing chords in the low register isn't really applicable to what you're doing. Totally normal to play power chords in that range (or lower) when you're playing doom, sludge, etc. You won't have to play differently or anything like that. Just turn up and let it rip, it will be fine.
 
#9
Your aim sounds like something I’d like to see in action, but my guitar/bass sensibility (for whatever that’s worth) tells me the real impact you’d get from
being able to go that low would come from using that low-frequency energy for propulsive syncopation, not space-filling rumble and boom.

An added benefit is that generating propulsive syncopation will probably involve less harmony and more “single note management,” leaving your duo partner more room for textural ornamentation.

But that would all come at the cost of playing your instrument “more like a bass and less like a guitar,” and maybe I am not fully grasping your intent...don’t want to come off as discouraging here.

Hope you make it work and post some clips to listen to at some point!
 
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#12
From poking around a bit more now I'm thinking about getting a simple crossover like this Rolls SX21 and just using the POG or whatever on the low end. Anybody tried anything like that? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00102VW6S/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_MeFYDb4Q6RW59

I guess I want to go "lower" because a) the chord root isn't always close to that low G and b) the thinner-than-bass strings don't create quite as much girth as I'd like. It is pretty thick and heavy on it's own, but I'd like to have a little more sub mass if possible. I didn't totally understand the propulsive syncopation comment, the other person in the two piece is a drummer and some of the chords have weird high-end droney bits, would be interested in knowing more what was meant by that though!
 
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#14
Sorry, for some reason I assumed your duo partner was a guitarist playing in the usual register. And I was talking about separating your musical roles farther than just regular tuning + baritone tuning would do.

Not sure where I got that, sorry! I get it now...you are the “pitched” instrument, trying to cover more of the sonic spectrum to fill out around the drums.
 
#15
I didn't notice your amp rig earlier... that's definitely the weak point IMO, you're just not moving much air. If you run a 100w (or more) tube head into a sealed 4x12 it will make a huge difference and you probably won't feel like you need an octave pedal.

I'd keep the rig you have now but split your signal between the bass cabs and a guitar half stack, I think you'll be pleased.
 
#17
There's a two piece around where I live doing something very similar with their instruments - a drummer and a guy playing a Squier Bass VI. He definitely plays it more like a guitar, although he's got a good amount of motion in the low notes. They get a great sound with a good amount of low end. No harmonizer, just a split signal with one side going through a guitar amp and the other through a bass amp, cranking the low end. This is a better bet IMO for the reasons @micguy elaborated above. I also played in a three-piece metal project for a little while where I had a bari tuned to A and the other guitarist was in E standard, and we also got plenty of low end. An added benefit of this kind of thing is that it's actually easier to hear the low end of the drumkit. Makes for a nice live mix.

I own a HOG and use it with both bass and guitar. In my opinion its lower octaves aren't convincing. They're ok blended up a little bit to fill out the low end on some basslines that I play up high, but I've tried it as a "bass sound" with my guitars a couple of different ways and it never really held up. You might find a use for an octave down blended in kind of quietly underneath some higher parts, but my guess is that it will make things kind of muddy as an always-on pedal, and it's probably not worth the trouble and expense.
 
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#18
What's the two piece you mentioned? Would like to check em out

Re: amp comment earlier, I am using a Crown XLS402 to boost the Ampeg PF-20T's xlr out so it's more of a "real" amp, kind of a hybrid fix since I really like the Ampeg's tone and like being able to play lower volumes at home without the full blast. Not perfect but decent for now. But yeah, I may just end up cranking the bass on that rig and splitting to a fender gtr amp for the upper register, I just have this extremely dense almost "club bass" sound in my head I want to be almost overpowering but still let drums and gtr/vox through and I doubt the split alone will do it..
 
#19
How about do it the style of Royal Blood and use a bass and run a couple bass strings and a couple guitar strings? Maybe do a 5 string and do it E-C or something like that? Bass IV (or Ibanez SRC6) might be a "better" choice? Seems like this might give that thicker sound? Out to a HP/LP spliter than to separate bass and guitar amps and cabs?
 
#20
I have a sub'n'up mini and a pitchfork. The pitchfork is the better of the two in my opinion. I mostly used the pitchfork with an expression pedal to do octave sweeps though. The nice part about the TC sub'n'up is that you have separate volume control for the octave up and octave down.

Edit: Most octave pedals that I've used track pretty well in the range you're using. I've mostly run into tracking issues when getting lower on the e string of a typical bass.
 
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