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Best power amp for pre/power rig

barthanatos said:
Could we get back on topic here? I'm interested in the results of this discussion. (Not that Bob and paulraphael's discussion isn't interesting)

I most definitely like to consider as much technical data as possible. Gain matching is very important. The theories behind any good amp sounding the same as any other good amp (with proper gain matching) make sense, and I understand that this should be the case. But, when I actually use/listen to amps, I sometimes hear differences (and sometimes I don't hear much at all of a difference). But, with regard to three of my favorite amps, PLX-3002, World 2.1, CA9, I have spent a lot of time with all of them, and I do hear differences.

So, bottom line is, knowledge is good, but at the end of the day, I go with how it sounds to my ears.

Tom.
 
paulraphael said:
I'm sure that's true. The converse is also true ... there can be things that make an appreciable difference that we don't have a good metric for.

Like what, for example? Maybe there's not a good metric for some things, but it doesn't mean that they can not be identified and addressed.

One thing that might be causing some confusion is that your definition of a good amp--one that changes little about the input signal besides gain--is not the definition used by every manufacturer. Or user. Some great amps are extremely linear and low in distortion, others are pretty far from it. What makes them great is that people subjectively think they sound great.

In other words, the qualities which could strictly be interpreted as flaws are also what make them special. The obvious example of this is the even-order harmonic emphasis of classic tube amplifiers. I have heard engineers (in other forums) go on rants about tube amp lovers being on crack--that the technology is proveably obsolete. They're not making a distinction between "good" as they learned it in school and "good" as heard by the ears of the beholder.

Certainly there are some amps with designed-in anomalies--effects, really--for subjective pleasure. I don't define those as "good" amps, even if they're very exotic and pricey and have been reviewed with nice flowery language. I certainly wouldn't use one in, say, a studio monitoring system; I don't want the program material I'm working on arbitrarily altered to sound different from what it actually is, however nice it may be.

As an analogy, there are some photos where I might like to shoot with a filter or effect, but I sure as hell don't want the camera arbitrarily adding that all the time.

BTW, tube amp distortions don't necessarily emphasize even-order harmonics; because the distortions tend to be asymmetrical, they cause both even and odd harmonics. Symmetrical distortion, such as when a SS amp clips, produces odd harmonics and little if any even even harmonic content. It's less a matter of one type of distortion emphasizing even harmonics, but more a matter of the other type not producing them.
 
GreyBeard said:
OK you're not gonna budge. 2 differently designed amps with identical specs measured with the same proceedures must sound and PLAY alike. Some say they don't engineers say they must. I say that if there is a difference its d@mn small and certainly not night and day. I suppose that the big debate is between switching power supplies and traditional transformers and that the older technology led sled somehow sounds better than the newer lighter switching type power amp. I've compared my plx1202 to a Carvin dpc1000 and a EV dynacord and I can't really tell any difference and the EV is 250 watts bridged into 8 ohms and the other 2 are around 600. A 250 watt operating at 75-150 watts doesn't sound any different than a 600 watt amp operating at 75-150 watts. The big headroom thing (imho) is a real myth. I've used tube amps and SS amps and must say that they don't sound (to my ears) the same and I've been able to get a good sound with both. All in all I prefer SS as it generally has a tighter bottom end. When I read statments that use terms like "night and day" I wonder just what are they hearing that I'm not. If they are talking about pre-amps or guitars it makes sense but Power Amps:hmm:

The big headroom thing is largely a myth. The bottom line is that if you can get the sound level you want without the amp clipping, you don't need more headroom on top of that for that particular situation. (Occasional, very short clips aren't anything to worry about, as they will be mostly inaudible.)

The problem is that your power needs may vary a lot from one gig to another (or maybe even from one set or song to another in the same gig ;) ). Therefore, it's better to have at least a little more power than you need than to have not quite enough.

In short, it's good to have headroom, but you don't necessarily need a lot of it.
 
Dr. PhunkyPants said:
Why do you guys do this to Bob? I think every few months somebody does this just watch him go postal.

I'm far from going postal. ;) No, I'm just walking my home turf, really.

Because heavy, big-transformer amps are better for bass than lightweight amps.

Not necessarily.
 
I wonder how many of the amps being discussed would qualify as "good" by Bob's standards. If you're really hearing a difference between amps, maybe there is one. That could mean that one or more of the amps you are listening to aren't "good" in that they alter the nature of the input signal in some way.

From the perspective of an amp manufacturer, that might be a bad thing. On the other hand, from the perspective of a musician looking for a particular sound, it might be just right.

Look at what we like in cabinets. Some are looking for the hi-fi cabs that produce exactly what's there. Others of us like the tone of cabinets that may have some character in themselves. The fabulous mid punch of Schroeder cabs is one example of this working in an actual performance environment.

Carrying forward from those thoughts, is the power amp that sounds best (assuming there is a real difference) when you're testing them going to be the one that sounds best on the gig?

-bob
 
AlembicBob said:
I wonder how many of the amps being discussed would qualify as "good" by Bob's standards. If you're really hearing a difference between amps, maybe there is one.

Hi Bob,

There are a lot of "good" amps that do a very good job of not altering the signal they amplify.

There are also some amps that do consistently modify the signal, but they're typically not sold as pro gear. As I mentioned in an earlier post, IMHO they're like cameras with built-in star filters or sepia filters … good perhaps for some things but potentially very confining in their versatility.

Maybe there is a difference between amps when one hears a difference, but maybe not. Humans have little difficulty at detecting sensory differences that don't actually exist, sometimes to great comic effect. In another thread I described a Candid Camera sketch in which wine from a single bottle was poured into several glasses, which were placed in front of various different wine bottles, certainly suggesting that each bottle represented what was in the glass in front of it. Then they brought in a wine enthusiast to taste each one and describe it. And sure enough, each wine taster described the different glasses very differently, and with great certainty.

As funny as the sketch is, I'm glad I wasn't asked to do the wine tasting; I probably would've fallen into the same human-nature trap of detecting a difference that was strongly suggested but not real, the trap of tasting with my eyes (our eyes also very often influence what we interpret with our ears, as many sighted and double-blind listening tests reveal).

We can't always control for irrelevent influences on what we compare, but we can be aware of those tendencies and use that knowledge to better get the sound we want, and hopefully without spending lots of money unnecessarily. If someone tells you that a particular amp is no good for a certain use, he may be right or he may be wrong. One way to tell is to look around and see if anyone else is having success with it; if they are, maybe you can learn from them.
 
But if having a certain amp in the rack convinces the player that he's got an army of pipe-hittin' mofo's backing him up, and he plays better because of it, then isn't that fine?

As my favorite veterinarian puts it "I'm a huge fan of placebo effect--if the patient gets better, who cares what's in the drug?"
 
Dr. PhunkyPants said:
But if having a certain amp in the rack convinces the player that he's got an army of pipe-hittin' mofo's backing him up, and he plays better because of it, then isn't that fine?

As my favorite veterinarian puts it "I'm a huge fan of placebo effect--if the patient gets better, who cares what's in the drug?"

That is fine if it's the amp he already has. If someone's agenda is to tell the player he can't get what he wants from his amp, and here, buy this one instead, then I'd say the player should engage his BS detector.
 
Bob Lee (QSC) said:
Like what, for example? Maybe there's not a good metric for some things, but it doesn't mean that they can not be identified and addressed.

I don't know what can be identified and addressed and what can't. I do not that certain phenomena don't seem to be addressed. For example, microdynamics and low level resolution, and preservation of spacial cues (soundstaging, imaging, sense of air, space, etc.). These are some of the phenomena that seem to separate solid, workmanlike amps from their higher end brethren. And luckily, they're qualities that seem to make a much bigger difference in music playback than in instrument or live sound amplification.

I also know that psychoacoustics is a very young and incomplete science--and that the people on its vanguard seem a lot less confident of their mastery of it than a lot of audio engineers do.


Bob Lee (QSC) said:
Certainly there are some amps with designed-in anomalies--effects, really--for subjective pleasure. I don't define those as "good" amps, even if they're very exotic and pricey and have been reviewed with nice flowery language. I certainly wouldn't use one in, say, a studio monitoring system; I don't want the program material I'm working on arbitrarily altered to sound different from what it actually is, however nice it may be.

Sure, studio monitoring is a different field with different requirements than music making or music playback. Even so, perfect linearity (in the whole monitoring system) is not really the goal the way a lot of people assume it is. Monitor speakers themselves (particularly the most popular models) are not dead flat. In fact they're often less flat than some lower quality and less popular units.

Recording and mastering engineers use their systems to make recordings that sound as good as possible on a range of playback systems. What works for them is often fairly ideosyncratic.


Bob Lee (QSC) said:
As an analogy, there are some photos where I might like to shoot with a filter or effect, but I sure as hell don't want the camera arbitrarily adding that all the time.

Photography's a great analogy. And as a photographer, I can tell you that plenty of photographers do choose their lenses and films for qualities that an engineer might consider a flaw or an effect. Portrait photographers often prefer lenses with lower MTF potential than the most modern lenses, because they want to emphasize tone over edges and detail. Same with people who prefer a pictorialist, soft look in their landscapes. Both kinds of photographers tend to prefer lenses with lower contrast potential and lower resistance to flair (which are technically considered flaws).

Even photographers who generally want sharp picture often like lenses with slightly undercorrected spherical aberration, because it produces more pleasing results in the out of focus areas. But there's very little in the optical engineering literature about this--the majority of lens designers concentrate on the rendering of in-focus areas.

Consider that the early electric guitar players were technically abusing their amps (or at best, taking advantage of the flaw of too little power ) when they played with distortion. No engineer at the time was thinking about making amps that sound a certain way when overdriven. But the creative desires of the end user became clear, and now, decades later, there's a whole science of creating great sounding distortion.

Just some food for thought.
 
paulraphael said:
I don't know what can be identified and addressed and what can't. I do not that certain phenomena don't seem to be addressed. For example, microdynamics and low level resolution, and preservation of spacial cues (soundstaging, imaging, sense of air, space, etc.). These are some of the phenomena that seem to separate solid, workmanlike amps from their higher end brethren. And luckily, they're qualities that seem to make a much bigger difference in music playback than in instrument or live sound amplification.

One way or another, it's all in the signal. These phenomena aren't necessarily absent from the "workmanlike" amps. You only assume them to be. If the amp maintains signal integrity through extremely high linearity, all the air, bloom, space, soundstaging, etc., that is in the input signal will be in the output signal.

I also know that psychoacoustics is a very young and incomplete science--and that the people on its vanguard seem a lot less confident of their mastery of it than a lot of audio engineers do.

What people do you consider to be on its vanguard? What do you think of the research that, for example, Dr. Floyd Toole and Sean Olive have done?

Sure, studio monitoring is a different field with different requirements than music making or music playback. Even so, perfect linearity (in the whole monitoring system) is not really the goal the way a lot of people assume it is. Monitor speakers themselves (particularly the most popular models) are not dead flat. In fact they're often less flat than some lower quality and less popular units.

Yes, studio monitors may vary in accuracy (and therefore quality).

Recording and mastering engineers use their systems to make recordings that sound as good as possible on a range of playback systems. What works for them is often fairly ideosyncratic.

Sometimes the results bely that. If the playback is idiosyncratically better than the actual end product, their approach is flawed.

Photography's a great analogy. And as a photographer, I can tell you that plenty of photographers do choose their lenses and films for qualities that an engineer might consider a flaw or an effect. Portrait photographers often prefer lenses with lower MTF potential than the most modern lenses, because they want to emphasize tone over edges and detail. Same with people who prefer a pictorialist, soft look in their landscapes. Both kinds of photographers tend to prefer lenses with lower contrast potential and lower resistance to flair (which are technically considered flaws).

Even photographers who generally want sharp picture often like lenses with slightly undercorrected spherical aberration, because it produces more pleasing results in the out of focus areas. But there's very little in the optical engineering literature about this--the majority of lens designers concentrate on the rendering of in-focus areas.

That is expressly why I said I would not want permanent filtering, effects, or oither alteration in the camera. Note that I did not say the same about lenses and filters. That is my point.
 
But think about it, Bob--optically speaking, a camera's a passive box. All it does is hold film (or a ccd) a certain distance from the lens. As far as signal processing goes, it's equivalent in the audio world is the table you put your amp on.

The lens and the film together ARE the signal processing system. Having lenses with a "look" is not fundamentally different from having an amp with a "sound."

Sure, you have the choice of owning more than one kind of lens ... just as a lot of people on this list own more than one kind of amp.
 
Yes, but again, a camera that would alter the image arbitraily is of very limited usefulness. A power amp that alters the signal arbitrarily is similarly crippled. That's exactly my point. If the camera's shutter time at 1/500 is actually 1/490 or 1/510, it won't make a significant difference in the image, and whether an amp's DF is 300 or 800 also won't make a significant difference.

Effects, EQ, processing, et al, are best done at line or instrument level, and not at high power, just as visual effects and filtering are best done through lenses, filters, choice of film, etc.
 
The analogy of audio power-amps and photo equipment is interesting. A camera lens is more like a microphone and the camera body (film holder) more like a tape recorder. The closest piece of equipment that relates to a power-amp would be an enlarger (sort of) and the photo paper the speaker. Anyway, in the world of 35mm photography the sharpest lens is usually a 50mm normal lens. This lens renders the sharpest image with the least aberrations and distortions. This would be like you clean flat audio power-amp. And when you compare lenses from different manufactures like Nikon, Leica, or Pentax the test data from the Leica (really expensive) won't be any better than the Pentax (usually very reasonably priced). And, a good photographer can take good pictures with either camera and no one would see any difference. Still there are people who wouldn't own anything but a Leica and go to great lengths to justify the $2,000+ lenses they ogle over. There are special lenses for soft focus (like tube amps) that de-emphasize facial rinkles and blems. Even though these lenses introduce distortion and aberrations pros. buy them all the time cause it makes people look better. Other lenses like anamorphic ones can stretch out things and are used in advertising to make a car look sleeker for instance. You can buy filters and attachments ( like pre-amps and pedals ) that will approximate the effects of these special lenses but these attachments never quite look as good as the real thing. My point is that some power amps because of their inherent flaws seem to be more satisfying to some bass players even though they may not be as flat and undistorted and have as good a specs and other amps.
 
But when the amp preferred is the lower (or equal) setting of gain amp, then I just go with my ears and brain.

Bob Lee (QSC) said:
...



Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying here.
The loudest amp (running within design parameters) usually sounds better.

What I was saying is that sometimes the better sounding amp can be the one that is less loud -- then, I just go with my ears.
 

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