That's the title of this guy's post. Anyone seen it?
http://www.thebassvault.com/Community/forums/thread/1075.aspx
http://www.thebassvault.com/Community/forums/thread/1075.aspx
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Beware Fodera's "certified pre-owned" web page and consignment deals
- Thread starter allexcosta
- Start date
I'll copy it here:
Hi all,
I'm dealing with a very frustrating situation right now, involving an employee of Fodera's, who does their web stuff & handles their new certified pre-owned Fodera consignment deals. I wanted to post this as a word of caution if anyone is considering selling a used Fodera on consignment through Fodera. I know it's strange to hear of ANY instance of a lapse of integrity, or questionable ethics involving Fodera. It has been very disappointing in a few different ways. The lapse of integrity was more so on the part of an employee of theirs, not Vinny & Joey directly, yet I'm disappointed that they don't seem to be too concerned about prompting their employee to correct the issue & handle it with integrity. In fact, it seems I'm going to have to follow through on preliminary steps I've already taken to file against them in small claims court.
Last year, I bought a 2006 Yin Yang 4. As you may know, the '06 specs are different, primarily with respect to the woods used. At the time that I bought mine (through a Fodera dealer who had ordered it - I didn't buy it directly from Fodera), it was 1 of only 3 built with the '06 specs: one built for Vic, the one I bought, and then a 3rd one built later which went to a buyer in Japan. I didn't realize it at the time, but it turns out that mine was built side by side with Vic's, as Fodera sometimes does when building toward more rare/uncommon specs. Mine was cut & made from adjoining pieces of wood, and built "side by side" along with Vic's.
As I said, I didn't know any of that until this disappointing event played out recently. The dealer I bought it from hadn't even gotten that info from Fodera. Anyway, here's what happened.
When I decided to sell it, I first shipped it back to the dealer I bought it from, for him to try to sell it for me on consignment. He'd had it for a few months when I noticed a new "program" on the Fodera site - they had posted a "certified pre-owned Fodera" page, which was new for them. Turns out, this "program" is pretty much entirely in the hands of an employee of theirs who does various things for them, I suppose - I'll just call him "Mike" here. When I saw the used Fodera page on their site, I thought "well, they probably get alot more hits than any particular dealer does ... maybe I should see if I can send my Y/Y to them to sell on consignment for me". So I called one day to ask about it. Joey came to the phone & I told him what I was calling about. He asked me about the bass I had & then said "Sure, we'll do it .. we get 20% for consignemnts, you ok with that?". I said I was, at which point Joey said "ok, I'll hand you over to the guy who takes care of these deals". "Mike" and I then spoke for a few minutes, at which time I told him the detailed specs of the bass, and I told him I'd have the bass shipped from the dealer to the Fodera shop.
Well, without even posting the bass on the page, "Mike" emailed me the next day to say he may have a buyer already, who wanted to come check the bass out at the shop that Friday. He said that based on the price he discussed with the buyer, I'd get $6200 for the bass. Fully assuming this price was in line with & derived from the 80/20 consignment terms Joey and I discussed, I said that would work for me, because that would've meant he had discussed a price of ~7800 with "the buyer", which sounded about right. Then sure enough, that Saturday I got another email from "Mike", saying, "Good news, the bass sold!". He got a check out to me a few weeks later & I wondered what the delay was in his getting it out since it had "sold" already, but I didn't sweat it too much.
Up to this point, the bass had never actually been posted on the certified pre-owned Fodera page, but then a few days AFTER I got the check, I saw that "Mike" posted a listing for the bass! At first, I gave him the benefit of the doubt, thinking, "well, I guess the buyer balked & "Mike" just went ahead and sent me the money, knowing he'd get it sold eventually". Unfortunately, though, it turned out to be a very different set of circumstances.
The day after I saw the bass posted, a friend of mine (fellow bass-head) emailed to say "Hey man, I saw your bass on the Fodera site & called them about it .. they're asking $12,000!! I didn't understand how or why they would be asking this much, so I went to check out the listing more closely. I then saw that in the description/specs, "Mike" described the bass as a "historic instrument", having been built side by side with Vic's, from the same cuts of wood, etc... You can see the listing for my Y/Y here: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] Check out the "specs" verbage.
It was clear to me then what had happened. After "Mike" and I first spoke on the phone about the bass & the consignment deal, he obviously looked up the build details of my bass in Fodera's records. When he saw the particulars of my bass, he apparently saw a nice little "investment opportunity" for himself. For all he knew, I may or may not have known these details about the bass (I didn't), but he darn sure did not call or email to inform me of what he'd discovered. Instead, he then sent me the email about a "potential buyer, if you can take $6200 for it", to feel me out about that. He had to have known that if I agreed to that amount, I was proceeding without knowledge of any unusual collectibility (and therefore higher "value") factor to this bass.
I was insanely busy in both my work & home life right at that time, and so didn't call or email Fodera immediately to find out what was up. I was also just kind of letting it "sit" in my mind ... not wanting to jump to any conclusions. But then my friend emailed me again a few days later to say that he had found out from "Mike" that the bass had sold for "over $12,000.
At that point, I called & talked to Joey to ask if he knew what had gone on with the bass. He said he did not, except that he knew the money "Mike" had sent me - the $6200 - had come directly out of his own pocket, and that none of the profit from the bass ever went into Fodera's account either. That was the piece of info that made it clear to me that I wasn't jumping to any inaccurate conclusions regarding what "Mike's" intention had been all along, after researching and discovering the history/background of my bass.
Joey also said that he guessed Mike probably considered the bass to be his after he sent me the money, and that he was therefore free to do whatever he wanted with it. But that's the fundamental point of disagreement. At no point did the status of the transaction ever legitimately (with mutual knowledge and agreement) transition from "Consignment deal for Robert" to "personal investment opportunity for 'Mike'". For that to have legimately occurred, I would've had to have at the very least known what was happening, being the seller, but I didn't. It's clear that after researching & discovering the details about my bass, it was "Mike's" intention to keep that info close to his chest, and get me out of the picture by paying me off, so that he could maximize his own profit on the deal. And to me, that is wrong.
I've explained my viewpoint to "Mike" as well as to Vinny & Joey - which is that I am still due the full 80% of the actual selling price (to the real buyer .. not the Fodera employee handling the consignment for me ... isn't that sort of a no-brainer?), as Joey and I discussed. The difference between $6200 and 80% of "over $12000" is no trivial amount, but for me, this is equally a matter of principle. I can just imagine how many of his friends "Mike" has high-fived while telling the story that he bought this bass for $6200 and turned right around and sold it for over $12000, and that just doesn't sit right with me at all. Unfortunately, however, none of them - "Mike", Vinny or Joey - will even respond to me now. It's very disappointing. I understand that Vinny & Joey don't have time or concern for the "certified pre-owned Fodera" consignment deals. They have a 3 year build-time on new orders, after all, and they concern & busy themselves with making the best basses ever made. Of course, I have nothing but respect and admiration for their luthiery, and how tangibly and positively it has impacted the musical landscape of today. But I had hoped they would show some concern over the highly questionable and unethical way their employee handled this deal. He is being careless with the great reputation they have worked so hard to build, and I'm surprised and disappointed that that's not enough to compel them to prompt him to do the right thing.
Robert
Hi all,
I'm dealing with a very frustrating situation right now, involving an employee of Fodera's, who does their web stuff & handles their new certified pre-owned Fodera consignment deals. I wanted to post this as a word of caution if anyone is considering selling a used Fodera on consignment through Fodera. I know it's strange to hear of ANY instance of a lapse of integrity, or questionable ethics involving Fodera. It has been very disappointing in a few different ways. The lapse of integrity was more so on the part of an employee of theirs, not Vinny & Joey directly, yet I'm disappointed that they don't seem to be too concerned about prompting their employee to correct the issue & handle it with integrity. In fact, it seems I'm going to have to follow through on preliminary steps I've already taken to file against them in small claims court.
Last year, I bought a 2006 Yin Yang 4. As you may know, the '06 specs are different, primarily with respect to the woods used. At the time that I bought mine (through a Fodera dealer who had ordered it - I didn't buy it directly from Fodera), it was 1 of only 3 built with the '06 specs: one built for Vic, the one I bought, and then a 3rd one built later which went to a buyer in Japan. I didn't realize it at the time, but it turns out that mine was built side by side with Vic's, as Fodera sometimes does when building toward more rare/uncommon specs. Mine was cut & made from adjoining pieces of wood, and built "side by side" along with Vic's.
As I said, I didn't know any of that until this disappointing event played out recently. The dealer I bought it from hadn't even gotten that info from Fodera. Anyway, here's what happened.
When I decided to sell it, I first shipped it back to the dealer I bought it from, for him to try to sell it for me on consignment. He'd had it for a few months when I noticed a new "program" on the Fodera site - they had posted a "certified pre-owned Fodera" page, which was new for them. Turns out, this "program" is pretty much entirely in the hands of an employee of theirs who does various things for them, I suppose - I'll just call him "Mike" here. When I saw the used Fodera page on their site, I thought "well, they probably get alot more hits than any particular dealer does ... maybe I should see if I can send my Y/Y to them to sell on consignment for me". So I called one day to ask about it. Joey came to the phone & I told him what I was calling about. He asked me about the bass I had & then said "Sure, we'll do it .. we get 20% for consignemnts, you ok with that?". I said I was, at which point Joey said "ok, I'll hand you over to the guy who takes care of these deals". "Mike" and I then spoke for a few minutes, at which time I told him the detailed specs of the bass, and I told him I'd have the bass shipped from the dealer to the Fodera shop.
Well, without even posting the bass on the page, "Mike" emailed me the next day to say he may have a buyer already, who wanted to come check the bass out at the shop that Friday. He said that based on the price he discussed with the buyer, I'd get $6200 for the bass. Fully assuming this price was in line with & derived from the 80/20 consignment terms Joey and I discussed, I said that would work for me, because that would've meant he had discussed a price of ~7800 with "the buyer", which sounded about right. Then sure enough, that Saturday I got another email from "Mike", saying, "Good news, the bass sold!". He got a check out to me a few weeks later & I wondered what the delay was in his getting it out since it had "sold" already, but I didn't sweat it too much.
Up to this point, the bass had never actually been posted on the certified pre-owned Fodera page, but then a few days AFTER I got the check, I saw that "Mike" posted a listing for the bass! At first, I gave him the benefit of the doubt, thinking, "well, I guess the buyer balked & "Mike" just went ahead and sent me the money, knowing he'd get it sold eventually". Unfortunately, though, it turned out to be a very different set of circumstances.
The day after I saw the bass posted, a friend of mine (fellow bass-head) emailed to say "Hey man, I saw your bass on the Fodera site & called them about it .. they're asking $12,000!! I didn't understand how or why they would be asking this much, so I went to check out the listing more closely. I then saw that in the description/specs, "Mike" described the bass as a "historic instrument", having been built side by side with Vic's, from the same cuts of wood, etc... You can see the listing for my Y/Y here: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] Check out the "specs" verbage.
It was clear to me then what had happened. After "Mike" and I first spoke on the phone about the bass & the consignment deal, he obviously looked up the build details of my bass in Fodera's records. When he saw the particulars of my bass, he apparently saw a nice little "investment opportunity" for himself. For all he knew, I may or may not have known these details about the bass (I didn't), but he darn sure did not call or email to inform me of what he'd discovered. Instead, he then sent me the email about a "potential buyer, if you can take $6200 for it", to feel me out about that. He had to have known that if I agreed to that amount, I was proceeding without knowledge of any unusual collectibility (and therefore higher "value") factor to this bass.
I was insanely busy in both my work & home life right at that time, and so didn't call or email Fodera immediately to find out what was up. I was also just kind of letting it "sit" in my mind ... not wanting to jump to any conclusions. But then my friend emailed me again a few days later to say that he had found out from "Mike" that the bass had sold for "over $12,000.
At that point, I called & talked to Joey to ask if he knew what had gone on with the bass. He said he did not, except that he knew the money "Mike" had sent me - the $6200 - had come directly out of his own pocket, and that none of the profit from the bass ever went into Fodera's account either. That was the piece of info that made it clear to me that I wasn't jumping to any inaccurate conclusions regarding what "Mike's" intention had been all along, after researching and discovering the history/background of my bass.
Joey also said that he guessed Mike probably considered the bass to be his after he sent me the money, and that he was therefore free to do whatever he wanted with it. But that's the fundamental point of disagreement. At no point did the status of the transaction ever legitimately (with mutual knowledge and agreement) transition from "Consignment deal for Robert" to "personal investment opportunity for 'Mike'". For that to have legimately occurred, I would've had to have at the very least known what was happening, being the seller, but I didn't. It's clear that after researching & discovering the details about my bass, it was "Mike's" intention to keep that info close to his chest, and get me out of the picture by paying me off, so that he could maximize his own profit on the deal. And to me, that is wrong.
I've explained my viewpoint to "Mike" as well as to Vinny & Joey - which is that I am still due the full 80% of the actual selling price (to the real buyer .. not the Fodera employee handling the consignment for me ... isn't that sort of a no-brainer?), as Joey and I discussed. The difference between $6200 and 80% of "over $12000" is no trivial amount, but for me, this is equally a matter of principle. I can just imagine how many of his friends "Mike" has high-fived while telling the story that he bought this bass for $6200 and turned right around and sold it for over $12000, and that just doesn't sit right with me at all. Unfortunately, however, none of them - "Mike", Vinny or Joey - will even respond to me now. It's very disappointing. I understand that Vinny & Joey don't have time or concern for the "certified pre-owned Fodera" consignment deals. They have a 3 year build-time on new orders, after all, and they concern & busy themselves with making the best basses ever made. Of course, I have nothing but respect and admiration for their luthiery, and how tangibly and positively it has impacted the musical landscape of today. But I had hoped they would show some concern over the highly questionable and unethical way their employee handled this deal. He is being careless with the great reputation they have worked so hard to build, and I'm surprised and disappointed that that's not enough to compel them to prompt him to do the right thing.
Robert
It's not fraud, per se, because the seller agreed to let the bass go for $6200, and got his money, but it was highly unethical of "Mike" for lying and making such a profit. And Fodera for not standing behind their customer.
This would had been settled if "Mike" and/or Fodera would have said to Robert that they would just outright buy the bass from him for $6200. That would have settled everything from the start.
This would had been settled if "Mike" and/or Fodera would have said to Robert that they would just outright buy the bass from him for $6200. That would have settled everything from the start.
Probably legal, definitely sleazy. If I were Vinny and Joey, I wouldn't want this stuck on my finger.
Yeah I think it stinks, but you did get what you wanted for it.
"Mike" obviously used his inside knowledge to "market" the bass. It just sounds like typical modern recession business activity.
He saw a chance and went for it, and I'm betting he doesn't exactly make a ton of cash in his regular job.
If I were you I would move on buy another bass (or several) with the $6200 take it as a lesson learned.
Sorry about that.
Dirk
"Mike" obviously used his inside knowledge to "market" the bass. It just sounds like typical modern recession business activity.
He saw a chance and went for it, and I'm betting he doesn't exactly make a ton of cash in his regular job.
If I were you I would move on buy another bass (or several) with the $6200 take it as a lesson learned.
Sorry about that.
Dirk
That sucks for "Robert", but he's got no claim to anything over what he was paid. He agreed to accept that amount for the bass.
Just another shady deal in the music industry. Happens every day.
Ethically wrong? Probably.
Legally wrong? Nope.
Just another shady deal in the music industry. Happens every day.
Ethically wrong? Probably.
Legally wrong? Nope.
Hey FODERA! This sucks ya know? Big Time!!!
Get written contracts every time you deal with a sale like this, obviously even more important with Fodera, given their lack of ethics on demonstration here. They would be meeting my friend "Vinny" if they did this to me. (Vinny is a really good Yale lawyer)
Again, in writing, before you ship anything anywhere, or accept or agree to anything..
Get written contracts every time you deal with a sale like this, obviously even more important with Fodera, given their lack of ethics on demonstration here. They would be meeting my friend "Vinny" if they did this to me. (Vinny is a really good Yale lawyer)
Again, in writing, before you ship anything anywhere, or accept or agree to anything..
That wasn't very nice of "Mike". In fact, it was downright ******. But the O.P. did not get cheated. He got his price.
All I can say is Welcome to New York. Land of the Poke and Stroke.
All I can say is Welcome to New York. Land of the Poke and Stroke.
LilRay
Commercial User
- Dec 27, 2007
- 4,166
- 39
- Disclosures
- Owner: Cockeyed Cow Custom Leathercraft
Does anyone actually know the person who posted this on the Bass Vault forum? Might he be a TB member? Without jumping to conclusions I'd like to see substantial proof of this if this is infact true. (Not saying it is or isn't). With the reputation that Fodera has (Or that I've read here about them) I'd be concerned If they would allow something of this nature to take place. IF they would allow an employee to somehow take advantage of anyone in any form or fashion, I'd be leary of conducting a business relationship with them for anything, much less a 10K+/- custom instrument. If Fodera has the impeccable reputation that is spoken of quite often here, I wouldn't think they would want to potentially ruin that reputation for around 6K profit(or their employees 6K profit). The situation doesn't really make a whole lot of sense IMO. Not saying that it didn't or couldn't happen but boy wouldn't that be foolish of Fodera.
I'm just puzzled R.
I'm just puzzled R.
- May 30, 2000
- 4,707
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- Creator of: iGigBook Sheet Music Manager
As much as we would all like to get the best deal possible sometime we don't. I don't think that what happened even if it's true is sleazy, bad or whatever you want to call it. You weren't cheated you got what you wanted for the bass. This has nothing to do with what later happens when Mike, Sue or whomever sells it and winds up making more money from the sale. This kind of thing happens all the time. You sell something for one price to someone and then they in turn sell it to someone else for a lot more money. Sure you wish you had asked for the higher amount but your circumstances at the time determine what your satisfied with. It's easy to look back later and say you could have gotten more as hindsight is always 20/20.
$6,200 is still a lot for a used bass guitar and you were fine with it, which means you got what you wanted. If some freakish accident happened after the sale and the bass got totalled you wouldn't be trying to cough up some of the dough you got, would you?
$6,200 is still a lot for a used bass guitar and you were fine with it, which means you got what you wanted. If some freakish accident happened after the sale and the bass got totalled you wouldn't be trying to cough up some of the dough you got, would you?
As much as we would all like to get the best deal possible sometime we don't. I don't think that what happened even if it's true is sleazy, bad or whatever you want to call it. You weren't cheated you got what you wanted for the bass. This has nothing to do with what later happens when Mike, Sue or whomever sells it and winds up making more money from the sale. This kind of thing happens all the time. You sell something for one price to someone and then they in turn sell it to someone else for a lot more money. Sure you wish you had asked for the higher amount but your circumstances at the time determine what your satisfied with. It's easy to look back later and say you could have gotten more as hindsight is always 20/20.
$6,200 is still a lot for a used bass guitar and you were fine with it, which means you got what you wanted. If some freakish accident happened after the sale and the bass got totalled you wouldn't be trying to cough up some of the dough you got, would you?
He didn't sell the bass to Mike. He had the bass on a 80/20 consignment with the people that were supposed to get market value for it. I think Vinnie and Joey owe this guy 3,400 bucks.
Not really. I had problems with their customer service myself. They don't reply to emails and when I needed a truss rod puller I had to get one from another source. They weren't helpful.
Welcome to Brooklyn and high end boutique gear. Without any consignment agreement? Suck it up. (I dont see why y'all dump that kind of coin on an axe anyhow. Dont make ya play like Vic.)
Small claims, better off buying a plane ticket and telling Mike ur coming to kick his ass for $5000. Brooklyn style. When he'd least expect it. "Send me a check, or I'm coming to play ************.."
Me, I would've called a good bud, one of "NY's Finest", and had the boyz talk to Mike. That's how we do things in Brooklyn. ( cuase kicking his tail inside out get us in jail)
But truly, Joey is not that much at fault. And not legally at all. Sounds like he lets "Mike" run his own profit center. Porlly not a good biz decision in teh high end bass industry, as evidenced by this thread.
MOD EDIT: ALL PROFANITY MUST BE FULLY MASKED.
Small claims, better off buying a plane ticket and telling Mike ur coming to kick his ass for $5000. Brooklyn style. When he'd least expect it. "Send me a check, or I'm coming to play ************.."
Me, I would've called a good bud, one of "NY's Finest", and had the boyz talk to Mike. That's how we do things in Brooklyn. ( cuase kicking his tail inside out get us in jail)
But truly, Joey is not that much at fault. And not legally at all. Sounds like he lets "Mike" run his own profit center. Porlly not a good biz decision in teh high end bass industry, as evidenced by this thread.
MOD EDIT: ALL PROFANITY MUST BE FULLY MASKED.
