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Bi-amp question...

B

BassMonstrum

Mar 7, 2008
1,016
33
#1
Ok, so I have an old Mesa/Boogie Roadready 1000 cabinet; 4x10" + 1x15" that can be plugged either combined (4 ohms) or separately (8 ohms each).

I want to do the following:

- Plug in my Gallien Krueger 1001rb-II into the 10's, giving them 480watts (8 ohms). This will be my effected signal.

- Then plug in a Gallien Krueger MB200 (when or if I get one) into the single 15", giving it 180 watts (8 ohms). This will be my clean tone.

[Now, before you all go "hey, 180 watts??? That's waaay too low" on me, hear this: I had the 15" speaker reconed a couple of years ago and was told by the repairman that the speaker was rated 200 watts @ 8 ohm.]

Then I plug my bass into a split-box (or my Boss CEB-3 which has two outputs), one cable straight to the MB200 while the other goes to my effects then to the 1001rb-II.

To me, this sounds logical, but I've never bi-amped before and even though I do have a GK NEO212-cabinet lying around, I thought it would be easier to bi-amp with just one (large) cabinet. Saves us space on the stage...

Thoughts, anyone?
 
#2
This is not bi-amping, which typically involves a crossover. This is using two amps :) Which is fine.

This will probably work great, once you get the signals balanced. Should be fine. Consult the manual and be absolutely certain those two separate jacks are totally separate from each other, and isolated to the speakers in question, as if they are not or you plug into the wrong jack you could get flaming wreckage.
 
#4
Yes true bi-amping involves a crossover to send the lows to one cab and the highs to another.

If you do actually want to bi-amp for what you want to do, do not be concerned about speaker size being relative to what is appropriate for highs or lows. Your 410 is probably better suited to the lows even though it has tens in it.

I've done the bi-amp thing for running effects into the highs and keeping the lows clean. But keep in mind that if you used either your 115 or 410 for the lows, you'd only need a 6" or 8" mid driver for the mids and highs to run effects through. A 410 is WAY overkill and unnecessary and the 15 doesn't have very good dispersion of mids (though your 410 doesn't either with tens side by side). One little 6" or 8" speaker can handle everything the low end doesn't and do it quite easily. And it requires little more than 100 watts to do so (maybe as little as 50 watts).

As I mentioned, your 410 would probably be better suited to the lows. You could use a 110 cab for mids and highs for effects and not have lug around a 115 cab (much less a 410) just for that purpose.

But as rpsands mentioned, be sure you can balance the output of two different cabs and don't go below your amp's impedance rating.
 
#5
Sundogue said:
Yes true bi-amping involves a crossover to send the lows to one cab and the highs to another.

If you do actually want to bi-amp for what you want to do, do not be concerned about speaker size being relative to what is appropriate for highs or lows. Your 410 is probably better suited to the lows even though it has tens in it.

I've done the bi-amp thing for running effects into the highs and keeping the lows clean. But keep in mind that if you used either your 115 or 410 for the lows, you'd only need a 6" or 8" mid driver for the mids and highs to run effects through. A 410 is WAY overkill and unnecessary and the 15 doesn't have very good dispersion of mids (though your 410 doesn't either with tens side by side). One little 6" or 8" speaker can handle everything the low end doesn't and do it quite easily. And it requires little more than 100 watts to do so (maybe as little as 50 watts).

As I mentioned, your 410 would probably be better suited to the lows. You could use a 110 cab for mids and highs for effects and not have lug around a 115 cab (much less a 410) just for that purpose.

But as rpsands mentioned, be sure you can balance the output of two different cabs and don't go below your amp's impedance rating.
Click to expand...

You probably are correct that if he threw a crossover in there that he'd be better using the bigger amp and 4x10 for the lows and the 15 for the mid's and highs off the MB200((with effects).
Even better would be all of that for the lows and a smaller speaker for effected mid's and highs as you suggest, though effects Bi-amping it seems people like a wet/dry point closer to 200 then a small draver can go.... .
 
#6
If the cab has two completely independent jacks for the speakers, that sounds like a fun way to experiment. I have always wanted to try something similar but I haven't been able to justify buying a second head for this purpose. That Mesa 1000 seems like a cool cab to try this on. If you run your set up this way, be sure to let us know how it turned out.
 
#7
Running full range into both cabinets but sending effects into only one would probably introduce all kinds of phasing issues, well beyond what the 410's and 115 already do combined.

410+115 in the same cab is not exactly a great design to begin with (doesn't matter if Mesa designed it, and they know it too). But it's powerful and it sells. But that's already under discussion in other threads.

I'd do a true bi-amp and split them up the right way with a crossover to eliminate some already existing issues and allow the clean/effects to really do what's being intended.
 
#8
Sundogue said:
Running full range into both cabinets but sending effects into only one would probably introduce all kinds of phasing issues, well beyond what the 410's and 115 already do combined.
Click to expand...

See, these are the things that make me post my ideas before actually doing them. Because I have no idea about phasing and such.


Derk_Falsco said:
If you run your set up this way, be sure to let us know how it turned out.
Click to expand...

If I can understand this phasing-thing and Norway start selling the MB200-heads, I'll be sure to let you know.
 
#10
Sundogue said:
Check out this thread...

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=681378
Click to expand...

After reading a couple of pages from the mentioned thread above, I have come to the conclusion that there will be NO phasing issues:

JimmyM said:
biamping or using separate amps for each cab can get rid of a lot of that phasing because you can eq them separately. but in the same amp using the exact same settings? nah, it's not for me.
Click to expand...

Technically, the Mesa/Boogie Roadready 1000 consists of two 8 ohm cabinets; the 10's and the single 15". Thus using two different amps will eliminate potential phasing. In fact, for my own good, I really ought to get another amp and go on with my plans.

Or am I completely off?
 
#11
If you truely want to try this.. (and have a few bucks... a GK R800 and Peavey Megabass) both do this straight from the factory.

This is my favorite setup (if running an amp).. especially if you can get help dialing it in from mid room... VERY cool to only have chorus on the high end.

Tim
 
#12
MNAirHead said:
If you truely want to try this.. (and have a few bucks... a GK R800 and Peavey Megabass) both do this straight from the factory.

This is my favorite setup (if running an amp).. especially if you can get help dialing it in from mid room... VERY cool to only have chorus on the high end.

Tim
Click to expand...

Don't have that much to spend, but yeah; an 800rb is actually the dream....
 
#14
BassMonstrum said:
After reading a couple of pages from the mentioned thread above, I have come to the conclusion that there will be NO phasing issues:



Technically, the Mesa/Boogie Roadready 1000 consists of two 8 ohm cabinets; the 10's and the single 15". Thus using two different amps will eliminate potential phasing. In fact, for my own good, I really ought to get another amp and go on with my plans.

Or am I completely off?
Click to expand...

You are already getting some phasing simply by using the 410 and 115 together. Which is why I made the comment that it didn't matter that Mesa designed it...they know it will too. But it looks cool and it's a lot of speakers so it will be loud. Sometimes that all one needs.

I don't know how you could read any of that thread and come away thinking you'll have NO phasing. Unless you skipped the posts with facts and only read the opinions of those who really, really like a 410 and 115 combination.

If you add effects into the equation and run them through one cab only, then the differences between soundwaves produced from the two cabs will be even greater. But you may never even notice.

So go ahead and try it, you might like it anyway. I've played through lots of rigs that were not very well designed and still loved them. Experimentation is half the fun.
 
#15
I simply can't understand how phasing can occur when using a different head for each cabinet. Ok, so the Mesa is one large cabinet, but split in two; the 10's and the single 15". I will be running one head through the 10's and another one for the 15". If this results in phasing then let's say someone who uses an SVT through a fridge and then a Marshall through a 4x12" also will have phasing issues. The only difference is, that all of my speakers are in one enclosure. Is THAT the problem?

I don't mean to be an *sshole on the subject, I just have difficulties understanding this.
 
#16
BassMonstrum said:
After reading a couple of pages from the mentioned thread above, I have come to the conclusion that there will be NO phasing issues:



Technically, the Mesa/Boogie Roadready 1000 consists of two 8 ohm cabinets; the 10's and the single 15". Thus using two different amps will eliminate potential phasing. In fact, for my own good, I really ought to get another amp and go on with my plans.

Or am I completely off?
Click to expand...

"Every piece of gear in the chain, from the cables to the speakers, affects the phase of the signal. Speakers affect phase differently at every frequency. This chart shows the phase response of a..."

Mixing Cabinets and Phase Response.
 
#18
BassMonstrum said:
I simply can't understand how phasing can occur when using a different head for each cabinet. Ok, so the Mesa is one large cabinet, but split in two; the 10's and the single 15". I will be running one head through the 10's and another one for the 15". If this results in phasing then let's say someone who uses an SVT through a fridge and then a Marshall through a 4x12" also will have phasing issues. The only difference is, that all of my speakers are in one enclosure. Is THAT the problem?

I don't mean to be an *sshole on the subject, I just have difficulties understanding this.
Click to expand...

You're not being one. You're asking questions, and questions are :cool:.

In the separate amp driving the tens, and a separate amp driving the 15 scenario, EQ-ing one amp/speaker combination for treble & mids, and the other for bass would form a quasi-crossover which would diminish the effects of phasing caused by running identical full-range signals through two different speaker types which have different responses over the same range of frequencies.

(But using matching speakers & cabs avoids the above phasing issue in the first place.)

However, in the spirit of working with the tools at hand (your cab) then the two independently EQ-able amps approach would give you more control over your sound than running a mixed speaker/full-range rig (in addition to preserving solid lows when using effects).
 
#19
MNAirHead said:
If you truely want to try this.. (and have a few bucks... a GK R800 and Peavey Megabass) both do this straight from the factory.

This is my favorite setup (if running an amp).. especially if you can get help dialing it in from mid room... VERY cool to only have chorus on the high end.

Tim
Click to expand...

Forgive my ignorance, but how do you run effects to the high end only on a GK 800rb? Assuming you are using only one amp, of course. I have an old 800rb and would love to do this, but there is only one input jack. Would I need to plug effects into the loop instead of before the amp (which is my current setup)?
 
#20
Gasman said:
Forgive my ignorance, but how do you run effects to the high end only on a GK 800rb? Assuming you are using only one amp, of course. I have an old 800rb and would love to do this, but there is only one input jack. Would I need to plug effects into the loop instead of before the amp (which is my current setup)?
Click to expand...

According to the BLOCK diagram in the 800RB manual, the amp's effects loop is in series after the EQ and is ahead of the X-over etc thus there doesn't appear to be a way of effecting the treble amp only.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
 

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