Double Bass Big Band Players...

[greitzer]

I agree with those who've said the bass doesn't need to be all that loud in a big band. My teacher used to tell me, "they don't necessarily need to hear the bass, they just need to be able to feel it."

With my DB and GK combo amp, nobody could even feel the bass. This is with a band that truly knows only ff. Hence the EUB.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

I dunno, I used to rehearse with a 17 piece band without an amp at all. Nobody seemed to have a problem hearing me.

Anyway, just cause I gotta pitcher...

 

[bribass]

Some TB Hi-Fi junkies may laugh, but this newer model Polytone
Link Removed
sounds great as a smallish combo amp. I've used it on big band gigs alot. It's big and warm sounding and cuts thru just fine. Sounds great w/o any pre-amp, just plug in and play. That's why I bring that to Big Band gigs. I don't need to mess w/ plugging in/breaking down lots of stuff when I have all those charts to deal with. It's got more juice than the old ('82) Mini-Brute IV that I still own (that still sounds great, BTW) plus a tweeter.

But I've also brought my little Yorkville BM-50 to BB gigs w/ only 50 watts and a single 10". That works too. Remember that w/ a BB it's really all about PULSE, not really volume.

 

[Ale]

I dunno, I used to rehearse with a 17 piece band without an amp at all. Nobody seemed to have a problem hearing me.

Anyway, just cause I gotta pitcher...

Oh nice , how you like that combination ?
2 of the upright-classics ..

 

[Ed Fuqua]

I'm digging it pretty much, but the thing I dig the most is that the cabinet only weighs 12 lbs (about 5 kilos). If I was back in East Bum**** driving right up to the door for every gig, I'd prolly want a little more like Chris' audiophile setup...

 

[bobbykokinos]

Maybe I'm doing something wrong then. I'm seeing you all pushing as little at 50w for a big band. Not doubting any of you. But, for the big bands I play in, this seems severely underpowered.. I'm pushing 225w with one 12 or 380w with (2) 12s. With 1 twelve, I really feel as if I could use more power. Granted, I will say, lately we have been playing with drummers that like to play rediculously loud for some reason.

Maybe my problem is getting "clean" power rather than more power. Or its a matter of getting the right head/EQ/pickup combo to cut through rather than turning up to cut though.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Bob I see from your profile that you're 26 and that's there's a fair amount of BG stuff. How long have you been playing upright and what's your background on it?

I only ask because you really seem to be looking at equipment solutions and that's kind of a BG headspace; I know when I started out making the switch from BG to DB I wasn't aware of the situation that Rufus addresses in his well worn quote. The bottom line is that if you aren't getting a sound that projects out of the bass, you aren't going to get one out of the amplifier. Or, as Rufus puts it, "If you get a thin weak sound out of the bass, all you get when you plug into an amp is a louder thin weak sound."

How are you working with your teacher on physical approach? How much playing without an amplifier do you do?

 

[TimoMetzemakers]

Maybe my problem is getting "clean" power rather than more power. Or its a matter of getting the right head/EQ/pickup combo to cut through rather than turning up to cut though.

Maybe your real problem is a big band that is way too loud, with players who don't listen?

I used to have the same problem with the big band I play in, and for me, the key was getting the drummer on my side. We decided to keep the volume of the rhythm section at an "acoustic" level, with me playing unamped. Of course the other guys complained (loudly ) about not being able to hear us. Then we asked them very politely to pay more attention to the rhythm section, and to play more softly if necessary.

Everybody didn't like that solution (especially in the trombone section), but with some cajoling and persuading, they agreed to bring the overall volume down. At this time, I don't even bring an amp to rehearsals anymore, and I only use a mic into the PA for concerts. Everybody rediscovered the pleasure of playing in a big band with REAL dynamics, with pp being very soft, and ff being DAMN ****ING LOUD (where you don't hear the bass anyway), so it's a win-win situation.

That strategy worked because I'm very lucky to play with a drummer with really big ears, I must admit. I hope it turns out as well for you!

Timo

 

[bobbykokinos]

Bob I see from your profile that you're 26 and that's there's a fair amount of BG stuff. How long have you been playing upright and what's your background on it?

I only ask because you really seem to be looking at equipment solutions and that's kind of a BG headspace; I know when I started out making the switch from BG to DB I wasn't aware of the situation that Rufus addresses in his well worn quote. The bottom line is that if you aren't getting a sound that projects out of the bass, you aren't going to get one out of the amplifier. Or, as Rufus puts it, "If you get a thin weak sound out of the bass, all you get when you plug into an amp is a louder thin weak sound."

How are you working with your teacher on physical approach? How much playing without an amplifier do you do?

Been playing upright through high school but started taking lessons in college (1998). Yes, my background started on electric but has migrated to almost strictly double bass the past several years.

I do agree with your post. If I'm getting a thin sound, it'll just be louder through the amp. Right now, I'm not taking any private lessons (although I'm trying to line some up again). Only time I play without an amp is several hours a day at home when I practice.

I'm not trying to find a bandaid for poor technique or crappy equiptment. What I'm trying to find out if is my choice of equiptment (cabinets and head mainly) is bottle necking me. I've had the same issues with the GK & Aguilar combo on electric also (very thin & sterile sounding). I think this is mainly attributed to the EQ section of the GK700.

Again, I'm not trying to lay the blame on the equiptment. But, this has been a reoccuring problem with this head and other cabinets I've played through it. If it was just an issue on DB, then I would think its possible that my technique is suffering. But its also an issue I'm having on electric too..

 

[Stumpy]

Walter Woods Green Light Electro Accoustic 450 watt amp with Euphonic Audio 10CLX. If the band is too loud for that, they're too loud to play in tune.

Do you have a web address for this company?

 

[Jeremy Allen]

I subbed on one gig with one of the big bands of which Bobby is a member, and I can say that it is not a dynamically sensitive band by any means. Kind of pointlessly loud for much of the time if I recall correctly--the drummer played lots of rock 'n' roll fills all the time. And the singer, after dropping beats and measures all over the place (which made the lead trumpet player have to constantly shout to the band updated indications of where we were in the chart), said to me "They say a good bass player is one who doesn't draw attention to himself; you must be great, then, 'cause I didn't notice you the whole set!"

I'm not trying to diss the band, just to say that I think amplification remedies will only go so far, at least in this case...

 

[bobbykokinos]

I subbed on one gig with one of the big bands of which Bobby is a member, and I can say that it is not a dynamically sensitive band by any means. Kind of pointlessly loud for much of the time if I recall correctly--the drummer played lots of rock 'n' roll fills all the time. And the singer, after dropping beats and measures all over the place (which made the lead trumpet player have to constantly shout to the band updated indications of where we were in the chart), said to me "They say a good bass player is one who doesn't draw attention to himself; you must be great, then, 'cause I didn't notice you the whole set!"

I'm not trying to diss the band, just to say that I think amplification remedies will only go so far, at least in this case...

Thank you for hitting the nail on the head. I try to be as unbaised/unnegative as possible because I do get a pay check from these guys. But, you pretty much summed it all up for me.

 

[bribass]

Like Ed said, try being very centered in your own sound and pulse. Don't pander to their 'too many note / volume adictions'. If you play quieter w/ your own centered sound and concept happening, hopefully the drummer will get the idea and listen for a change and come to you, where your volume and musical vibe is. I say hopefully, but don't always count on it.

Unless there is some real loud Rock guitar soloing or organ wailing, 225 watts and a good 12" should cut it in most rooms or perhaps I might bring a 15". Otherwise in larger rooms you'll need help from pro sound reinforcment. You shouldn't have to bring a Marshal stack to play w/ a
"Jazz" band. When I do need a stack for bass guitar and/doubling I have a Acoustic Image Focus 2R III head w/ an Aguilar 112 on top of a EV Proline 15" in a Flite Sound cab. W/ a 4ohm load that Focus pushes a lot of juice.
Or my old (80's vintage) Walter Woods head w/ about 225 watts, prolly more at 4 ohms.

But I've never brung this 2 speaker rig to a Jazz BB gig. Only for big loud halls when playing BG or doubling in a loud or Rock oriented band.

BG

 

[Ale]

Yeah , the AI Coda R has never let me down ,
it plays so friggen loud !
Works with most constellations ..

Must be perfect for Big band players ? easy to transport , since you can have the bass on one shoulder and the amp in the gigbag on the other shoulder ..

 

[SteveS]

Stumpy
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Greater Sacramento CA area
Posts: 105

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveS
Walter Woods Green Light Electro Accoustic 450 watt amp with Euphonic Audio 10CLX. If the band is too loud for that, they're too loud to play in tune.


Do you have a web address for this company?

Walter Woods has a phone number in Palm Desert which has been listed in other forums. I don't have it at hand. Definately no web page. But I will find the phone # if you want to e-mail me off-list. The Euphonic Audio can be googled. Bob Gulliher carries their stuff. The CLX 10, be warned, sounds neutrally great (if those words have real meaning) but weighs 36 pounds. Very sturdy and well made. not cheap. If necessary you can avenge the drag of the trombone section, the intonation of the saxes, and the attitude of the trumpets, by making their ears bleed with this rig.

Steve

 

[mxr255]

David Gage Realist Pick Up

Spirocore light tension strings

SWR WM 10 with a 1x10 ext.

and some fat fingers digging in.....

took me a while to find what works for me though....good luck

 

[simandlhandle]

My current rig is an Epifani UL502 (at 8 ohm - 250 watts) into an EBS 1x12 300w cab. I usually set the volume at about half full volume, but I balance to the drummer. I have played without an amp, but the drummer has to agree to not playing so loud. It shouldn't be, but it is, hard for most dummers to limit their volume and still drive the band?

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Some TB Hi-Fi junkies may laugh, but this newer model Polytone
Link Removed
sounds great as a smallish combo amp. I've used it on big band gigs alot. It's big and warm sounding and cuts thru just fine. Sounds great w/o any pre-amp, just plug in and play. That's why I bring that to Big Band gigs. I don't need to mess w/ plugging in/breaking down lots of stuff when I have all those charts to deal with. It's got more juice than the old ('82) Mini-Brute IV that I still own (that still sounds great, BTW) plus a tweeter.

I often sit in for a guy who plays through one of these Polytones and it sounds pretty good. IMO the key to this amp is that the cabinet is smallish for a 15" and is tuned to a higher frequency. This keeps it from getting muddy.

I use an SWR WM10 by the way and it 'just' works.

 

[justBrian]

I use an AI Contra I and have no problem being heard. I play regularly with a 13 piece and the guys really love the way this amp sounds.

 

[mrpc]

I dunno, I used to rehearse with a 17 piece band without an amp at all. Nobody seemed to have a problem hearing me.

Anyway, just cause I gotta pitcher...

Ed, man, if you are using the eq on th Woods the way it's set on channel one, you are pushing that lil ol' speaker to max. 1200 watts of 42' string length punishment! Wow, that's like the cave man guy in Lou Reed's band or something.