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Big E Speakers Part 4 - Quadraphenia
- Thread starter kesslari
- Start date
I'm coming to this topic late – @Alphaman has had his say and Mike (if indirectly) has had his and it seems that they've worked out an amicable solution. Though it does not directly concern me, I am grateful to both of them for that. Experiences dealing with Mike were asked for, though, and perhaps mine will be pertinent.
I've had four Big E rigs: a 2nd generation 66, an 18 Sound MAS 112, a 210 Flex Mod with sub, and the latest 46. I sold the 66 when I bought my 112, but I still have the others. I bought the 66 and the Flex Mod used, via TB, and the 112 and the 46 new from Mike.
I spent an inordinate amount of time asking Mike questions about each of those rigs before I purchased them, and Mike spent an inordinate amount of time answering them. I made a couple of visits to his place, with a variety of basses, amps, and cabs, and the amount of time he took with me, playing various combinations of the aforementioned, tweaking settings, and listening back-and-forth, was, frankly, silly. When I was looking at the used cabs, I never felt any pressure from Mike to "buy this new cab instead." I never felt any difference in how he treated me or how he answered my questions when I was looking at the new stuff vs. the used. It was a long time from when I first contacted Mike to when I bought my first Big E cab – and that was the second-hand 66. The MAS 112 was the first cab I ever bought directly from him – many builders would have lost patience with me, but he did not. Before I picked up an Audiokinesis Hathor 1203 recently (also used – sorry, Duke!), Mike told me what he thought might be the relative strengths and weaknesses of the Hathor and the small cabs he made at the time and concluded with, "Try it. You'll probably like it. Duke makes a great cab."
I don't remember what the production estimates on the two new cabs I ordered were – I want to say in the neighborhood of 6 to 10 weeks. I think that the 112 was on time or a little bit early and the 46 a few weeks later than originally estimated (I knew that Mike was very busy with orders at the time, though, and told him to get it to me whenever).
Once, one of the used cabs needed a repair. That one did take a good deal longer than anticipated – there were missed communications and unreturned calls and, though I knew that Mike was (as always) busy, it frustrated me. I expressed a sentiment similar to Jerome's: “Just let me know what's up and I'll probably be okay with it.” When Mike did get back in touch with me, though, he apologized for the delay and said that the cost of the repair was on him. (I also asked him to do a mod to the cab while he had it – I paid for that.) Communication has been spotty at times, as others have mentioned and Mike has acknowledged, and I'd be lying if I said that it never bothered me, but Mike has also called me, out of the blue, with new thoughts on something we'd talked about six months or a year previous – when I've had an observation or a suggestion, I've always felt that he took it seriously. If I ever had a question or concern regarding a cab or anything else, he always went above and beyond in addressing it. On the whole, he's been generous of his time and expertise to a fault.
Mike has openly catalogued his faults and customer-service missteps already. I am glad to see him, as he put it, "honestly address his limitations" and take concrete steps to improve the situation. I hope this leads to a smoother, more predictable process for him and for his customers and encourages more people to try these extraordinary cabs. I also hope that it leads Mike to a healthier, less stressful, and more sustainable approach to business (easier said than done, I know). It can only be better for him and for his customers in the end.
Jerome and I have spoken and I think that I understand where he's coming from. Mike has made some decisions that have turned some people off and likely cost him some customers. That is something that he'll have to live with and learn from. I've made my fair share of mistakes, so I am not judging anyone – I can empathize with both parties and Jerome certainly had the right to express his frustration which, by all accounts, he'd held back for awhile. I told Jerome that I might have handled things a little differently than he did, but it seems that his post and other dealings with Mike were the impetus for a realization and a positive change on Mike's end. Perhaps that wouldn't have happened – or happened as quickly – had things been handled more circumspectly and perhaps Mike and Jerome wouldn't have reached the resolution that they did. All in all, it seems that the most recent developments here have been for the good. I certainly wish everyone involved the best.
As for myself, I realize that my experiences with Mike don't invalidate anyone else's -- good or ill. I haven't spoken with Mike in awhile and we haven't discussed the incident with the 38 -- but we have had conversations in the past that touched on some of the same things. Still, my dealings with him have been on the whole positive. Mike is as passionate about sound as anyone I've ever met and the cabs he makes -- and the way he throws himself into their development -- reflect that. That doesn't excuse anything, but it counts for something with me, as does the note that he wrote and the sentiments expressed therein. I planned and plan on doing business with Mike again.
***
Re. the cabs themselves, I've chronicled my impressions of the various Big E rigs I've played – those I've owned and those I've tried out at Mike's place (and at @thumbs&fingers') – in some detail in the past. Less so, lately. For those new (or newer) to the thread and to these speakers, the main reason I looked into them initially was that I was having trouble hearing myself in loud, busy mixes. They (my MAS 112 in particular) solved that problem for me more completely than any other cab I've ever played, period. Ancillary benefits have been better clarity and articulation (particularly in the low register), reduced interactions with acoustically difficult rooms, and a presentation of the sound that, for me, more closely approximates the experience of playing an acoustic instrument (more open, less boxy, less obviously “coming from a speaker”).
Voicing and form factor vary from cab to cab and have evolved quickly over the last few years of sometimes frenetic product development (that itself might not be the best thing from a marketing standpoint, but it seems to have enabled Mike and the Big E guys to achieve things that might otherwise have taken years longer). As with anything else (pickups, basses, amps), different cabs will appeal to some folks (myself included) more than others. (I played an old B-15 this summer and fell in love with it -- and that's about as far removed from a Big E/MAS cab as you can get. I liked the performance but was not crazy about the voicing of my 2nd gen. 66.)
There are other cabs that I like, too (the Hathor 1203 is one), but what these cabs do and how they do it (all the "Big E stuff" that was discussed in the early threads) is, in my experience, unique. It was maybe more clear with some of the earlier designs, which were, in appearance and sound, more "outside the box" than the current designs, which are more refined (and I think more practical) in form and sound. It's easy to forget about it when playing the cab -- it's just a good, clear bass sound. You really need to play one next to a conventional cab, on a gig, in a busy mix, to fully appreciate what they do. Even then, they won't be for everyone or for every situation (did I mention that B-15?), but they offer something unique and, in my opinion, worth checking out.
Maybe all of the "vortex stuff" fading into the background is a kind of success -- a musician, when playing, should be thinking about making music, not about his rig (beyond maybe enjoying the sound coming from it) or about the mechanism by which it works -- that it works is the thing, no? Maybe not -- I guess it depends on how you approach it. I still think the cabs are worth checking out.
That's all. Cheers, everybody.
-MA
I've had four Big E rigs: a 2nd generation 66, an 18 Sound MAS 112, a 210 Flex Mod with sub, and the latest 46. I sold the 66 when I bought my 112, but I still have the others. I bought the 66 and the Flex Mod used, via TB, and the 112 and the 46 new from Mike.
I spent an inordinate amount of time asking Mike questions about each of those rigs before I purchased them, and Mike spent an inordinate amount of time answering them. I made a couple of visits to his place, with a variety of basses, amps, and cabs, and the amount of time he took with me, playing various combinations of the aforementioned, tweaking settings, and listening back-and-forth, was, frankly, silly. When I was looking at the used cabs, I never felt any pressure from Mike to "buy this new cab instead." I never felt any difference in how he treated me or how he answered my questions when I was looking at the new stuff vs. the used. It was a long time from when I first contacted Mike to when I bought my first Big E cab – and that was the second-hand 66. The MAS 112 was the first cab I ever bought directly from him – many builders would have lost patience with me, but he did not. Before I picked up an Audiokinesis Hathor 1203 recently (also used – sorry, Duke!), Mike told me what he thought might be the relative strengths and weaknesses of the Hathor and the small cabs he made at the time and concluded with, "Try it. You'll probably like it. Duke makes a great cab."
I don't remember what the production estimates on the two new cabs I ordered were – I want to say in the neighborhood of 6 to 10 weeks. I think that the 112 was on time or a little bit early and the 46 a few weeks later than originally estimated (I knew that Mike was very busy with orders at the time, though, and told him to get it to me whenever).
Once, one of the used cabs needed a repair. That one did take a good deal longer than anticipated – there were missed communications and unreturned calls and, though I knew that Mike was (as always) busy, it frustrated me. I expressed a sentiment similar to Jerome's: “Just let me know what's up and I'll probably be okay with it.” When Mike did get back in touch with me, though, he apologized for the delay and said that the cost of the repair was on him. (I also asked him to do a mod to the cab while he had it – I paid for that.) Communication has been spotty at times, as others have mentioned and Mike has acknowledged, and I'd be lying if I said that it never bothered me, but Mike has also called me, out of the blue, with new thoughts on something we'd talked about six months or a year previous – when I've had an observation or a suggestion, I've always felt that he took it seriously. If I ever had a question or concern regarding a cab or anything else, he always went above and beyond in addressing it. On the whole, he's been generous of his time and expertise to a fault.
Mike has openly catalogued his faults and customer-service missteps already. I am glad to see him, as he put it, "honestly address his limitations" and take concrete steps to improve the situation. I hope this leads to a smoother, more predictable process for him and for his customers and encourages more people to try these extraordinary cabs. I also hope that it leads Mike to a healthier, less stressful, and more sustainable approach to business (easier said than done, I know). It can only be better for him and for his customers in the end.
Jerome and I have spoken and I think that I understand where he's coming from. Mike has made some decisions that have turned some people off and likely cost him some customers. That is something that he'll have to live with and learn from. I've made my fair share of mistakes, so I am not judging anyone – I can empathize with both parties and Jerome certainly had the right to express his frustration which, by all accounts, he'd held back for awhile. I told Jerome that I might have handled things a little differently than he did, but it seems that his post and other dealings with Mike were the impetus for a realization and a positive change on Mike's end. Perhaps that wouldn't have happened – or happened as quickly – had things been handled more circumspectly and perhaps Mike and Jerome wouldn't have reached the resolution that they did. All in all, it seems that the most recent developments here have been for the good. I certainly wish everyone involved the best.
As for myself, I realize that my experiences with Mike don't invalidate anyone else's -- good or ill. I haven't spoken with Mike in awhile and we haven't discussed the incident with the 38 -- but we have had conversations in the past that touched on some of the same things. Still, my dealings with him have been on the whole positive. Mike is as passionate about sound as anyone I've ever met and the cabs he makes -- and the way he throws himself into their development -- reflect that. That doesn't excuse anything, but it counts for something with me, as does the note that he wrote and the sentiments expressed therein. I planned and plan on doing business with Mike again.
***
Re. the cabs themselves, I've chronicled my impressions of the various Big E rigs I've played – those I've owned and those I've tried out at Mike's place (and at @thumbs&fingers') – in some detail in the past. Less so, lately. For those new (or newer) to the thread and to these speakers, the main reason I looked into them initially was that I was having trouble hearing myself in loud, busy mixes. They (my MAS 112 in particular) solved that problem for me more completely than any other cab I've ever played, period. Ancillary benefits have been better clarity and articulation (particularly in the low register), reduced interactions with acoustically difficult rooms, and a presentation of the sound that, for me, more closely approximates the experience of playing an acoustic instrument (more open, less boxy, less obviously “coming from a speaker”).
Voicing and form factor vary from cab to cab and have evolved quickly over the last few years of sometimes frenetic product development (that itself might not be the best thing from a marketing standpoint, but it seems to have enabled Mike and the Big E guys to achieve things that might otherwise have taken years longer). As with anything else (pickups, basses, amps), different cabs will appeal to some folks (myself included) more than others. (I played an old B-15 this summer and fell in love with it -- and that's about as far removed from a Big E/MAS cab as you can get. I liked the performance but was not crazy about the voicing of my 2nd gen. 66.)
There are other cabs that I like, too (the Hathor 1203 is one), but what these cabs do and how they do it (all the "Big E stuff" that was discussed in the early threads) is, in my experience, unique. It was maybe more clear with some of the earlier designs, which were, in appearance and sound, more "outside the box" than the current designs, which are more refined (and I think more practical) in form and sound. It's easy to forget about it when playing the cab -- it's just a good, clear bass sound. You really need to play one next to a conventional cab, on a gig, in a busy mix, to fully appreciate what they do. Even then, they won't be for everyone or for every situation (did I mention that B-15?), but they offer something unique and, in my opinion, worth checking out.
Maybe all of the "vortex stuff" fading into the background is a kind of success -- a musician, when playing, should be thinking about making music, not about his rig (beyond maybe enjoying the sound coming from it) or about the mechanism by which it works -- that it works is the thing, no? Maybe not -- I guess it depends on how you approach it. I still think the cabs are worth checking out.
That's all. Cheers, everybody.
-MA
Well said MarkA!
I would have never met mark or had the wonderful testing session time we had if it weren’t for Mike’s cabs and the inspiration his cabs have given some of us. To the point that strangers reach out to other strangers and share thoughts and ideas. There was a time a hundred years ago you would have had to be in a university setting for that to happen.
I would have never met mark or had the wonderful testing session time we had if it weren’t for Mike’s cabs and the inspiration his cabs have given some of us. To the point that strangers reach out to other strangers and share thoughts and ideas. There was a time a hundred years ago you would have had to be in a university setting for that to happen.
Mark, I applaud this effort of yours. You are well-spoken and are a kindly soul. However, that said...
Not to re-stir the pot, but by way of disclosure, for Mike's information mostly, I can report that I found the "wealthy hobbyists" tirade to be in particularly poor taste and simply offensive.
Though I am neither wealthy (or rich or even monied by the American standard) nor easily personally offended, I felt bad after reading that. Why? Because in a moment of weakness Mike revealed a probably long held contempt for the fans and patrons of his business.
When I bought a new MAS-112 from him, I spent money that I could have instead saved for retirement or used for car payments. But to me, the beauty of music and the tools that help me make it are more important than retirement. I'll end up destitute anyway. "Better to have loved and lost..." and all that.
So when Mike cast us all as something beneath both him and the art, he did so unfairly. Because Mike doesn't know me. Although now for long a working musician no more, I am a lifer and practice the art as seriously as I ever did.
And I am good. Really good. I conceive, think, hear, and create at a high level, and in a unique and useful way. Because I happen not to apply that in the canonical working musician way anymore, that makes me a hobbyist?
Maybe Mike's accomplishments do entitle him to pass judgement on others generally and on his customers particularly. If so, then I leave him to it. But if not, then indeed: he better check himself before he wrecks himself.
Anyone wants a clean MAS-112 Eminence with switchable B&C tweeter at a bargain price, let me know.
- Apr 29, 2003
- 9,078
- 9,800
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- Contributor- Bass Musician Magazine | Marketing Manager- Trickfish Amplification
sexy mini rig. Whats up with that H9 makeover? Does the Sumo deliver? I've been wondering if it sounds good and has the power to satisfy. Coming from the 1000ASP and the Quilter, I'm a little spoiled with regard to headroom.
- Dec 21, 2007
- 15,230
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- Lark in the Morning Instructional Videos; Audix Microphones
@Snaxster , I hear you. It was a Really Dumb (TM) thing to say.
We all have said Really Dumb things - offensive sometimes. I shouldn't say "we all" - but I certainly have. Some of them I didn't really mean or even believe.
It was pretty clear at that time (based on things he posted, then deleted) that Mike was going through a really rough patch, internally. Hopefully he got some help or found a way out - seems like that's happening.
With that said - I say hang on to and enjoy the MAS-112.
We all have said Really Dumb things - offensive sometimes. I shouldn't say "we all" - but I certainly have. Some of them I didn't really mean or even believe.
It was pretty clear at that time (based on things he posted, then deleted) that Mike was going through a really rough patch, internally. Hopefully he got some help or found a way out - seems like that's happening.
With that said - I say hang on to and enjoy the MAS-112.
@kesslari, you got your wish:
Mike and I discussed the matter and made a deal. He will work on his stuff (just as I work on mine, though out of view of the interwebs), and I will keep my MAS-112. We will do these things with goodwill and without any acrimony. No strings attached except the bass strings.
Thanks for promoting reconciliation and positivity.
For what it’s worth. With a lot of the stirring lately in this thread, the Bodai 112 is a beast of a cab. It truly swallows 2 GK neo 212’s stacked. How the @&$?! Can you accomplish that with a single 12”?
What’s crazy about this box that I’ve never dealt with is the difference you hear from it. It takes some getting used to with what is coming out of it IMO. When you spend most of your days playing with commercial cabs then make a move towards let’s say “a super cab” things change.
Commercial meaning Ampeg, Eden, Aguilar and GK from my experience.
Your basses sound very different from one another. Your effects pedals sound very different from one another. Etc. its all just a different shape and form of different.
Is any piece of music gear for everyone?? Heck no. I’ll stick with my Bodai 112 and try to get more in tune with it for now cause this flipping gear gets expensive.
Now I want to hear some tube heads through this thing!!!
Bottom line is whatever you choose. Make music. Enjoy life and rock on
What’s crazy about this box that I’ve never dealt with is the difference you hear from it. It takes some getting used to with what is coming out of it IMO. When you spend most of your days playing with commercial cabs then make a move towards let’s say “a super cab” things change.
Commercial meaning Ampeg, Eden, Aguilar and GK from my experience.
Your basses sound very different from one another. Your effects pedals sound very different from one another. Etc. its all just a different shape and form of different.
Is any piece of music gear for everyone?? Heck no. I’ll stick with my Bodai 112 and try to get more in tune with it for now cause this flipping gear gets expensive.
Now I want to hear some tube heads through this thing!!!
Bottom line is whatever you choose. Make music. Enjoy life and rock on
Thanks, C. I am indebted to you for your hospitality.
I'll echo your thanks to kesslari and add that this is one of the more heartening things I've read on TB in a good while. Thanks for that.
I definitely sit in the hobbyist category (right near the bottom), but I'm certainly not wealthy (retired on a fixed income), so I guess that's why it didn't occur to me to take any offense when I read Mike's comment about wealthy hobbyists. I can probably count the paying gigs I've done on two hands and a foot (or two feet and a hand if I'm wearing sandals) and for as long as I've been playing, I should be a helluva lot better bassist and musician. But, I enjoy playing bass and value good tone and quality gear. At this stage of my life it's good therapy, and that's worth a lot to me. I'm on my third BigE/MAS cab, an early generation 46 that I bought used, after buying and selling a new 109, then a new 112. I guess my point is, there *are* hobbyists out there who enjoy this stuff and appreciate a BigE/MAS cab as the one good speaker that they can afford, not as just something to add to the collection. I guess instead of wealthy hobbyists, I think of it more like there are hobbyists and there are wealthy collectors, and of course hobbyists are more deserving owners of good gear.
I always follow this thread, but tend to just lurk and stay out of the way of the real musicians here. Once in a while I get the foolish notion that I have something to add, then I crawl back into the shadows. Like now...
I would have to take a large financial hit to get into a Bodai, but I think the Bodai 112 would be the perfect cab for the room (church sanctuary) that I play. I only added a sub to my Flex 110 because there were a few occasions that I maxed out. I haven't come close to needing all the volume the Flex/sub will bring. I should have taken Mike's advice to invest in a Flex 210 top when instead when I had him build me another Flex 110. The Reeves I've been using with the Flex 110/sub has huge low-end and I've had to run the bass control @ 9 - 10:00 to balance with the mids/highs. I'm getting slower as my head gets grayer, but a simple, elegant idea finally occurred to me yesterday - a two-Flex stack! The Reeves is so heavy that after a few weeks/months, the feet get 'welded' to the top of the cab, so step one was breaking the 'welds'! After stacking the Flexes, I crowned it with my Shaw B-150. I love the "Shift" setting on the bass control which cleans/leans the low end and brings amazing full-range clarity. The Flex's were both set to "dark" (tweeter on, woofer in phase, mids @ -3db) and I sounded ridiculously good. I took pics, but left my camera @ church, so I'll post them this evening...
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Neat-o. For all the mixing and matching of cabs I've done, that's one that hadn't occurred to me (and I don't have a second Flex to try it with). I have a Shaw, but I've never played the Reeves. If the bass response seems huge with it, you might try elevating the cabs a bit (they'll still have good bass response -- they don't get neutered as many cabs do when elevated -- and likely gain some clarity), but if they're working on the floor with the Shaw, go ahead.
My Flex/110 rig was sitting 24-6" off the floor (reinforced, re-purposed MDF rolling table), as is the Flex/Flex/Shaw stack. The mid/high section of the top Flex is right at my ear level now, and the mid/high section of the lower Flex is at ear level for the congregation when seated.
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Ah, gotcha. Good deal. Bet it sounds great with the Shaw -- nice Dingwall P/J, btw!My Flex/110 rig was sitting 24-6" off the floor (reinforced, re-purposed MDF rolling table), as is the Flex/Flex/Shaw stack. The mid/high section of the top Flex is right at my ear level now, and the mid/high section is at ear level for the congregation when seated.
View attachment 2832072
Thanks, Mark. Believe me, I am the weakest link in this fine signal chain, but when I 'get it right', it's scary good. 
I recently replaced the neck pickup on that P/J with a Nordstrand NP-4a which I've been soloing lately - voice of the god of precision basses! 
I recently replaced the neck pickup on that P/J with a Nordstrand NP-4a which I've been soloing lately - voice of the god of precision basses!
Love the look of that Dingwall, and the pic makes me miss the reeves. If only to have em all!
Thanks.
When I first saw another player's in this color combo, I thought it was the ultimate look for a Super J (still do!). Don't be fooled by its looks, it is a complete beast. I plugged it into the reconfigured rig again this evening. I have never been more satisfied with the sound and feel. The Shaw is a complete joy. Gorgeous when playing at a whisper or roaring with authority. There's just nothing not to like about what it brings to the table. The double Flex array brings it on....!!!
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Thanks to our generous brother @3rdcurve , who was kind enough to thoroughly break it in and then give me a smokin' deal, I'm going to be parking a Bodai 110 on the right side of my Flex very soon!
