Biggest Bang in Smallest Footprint

[Lobster11]

What is the biggest sound you can get out of the smallest package? I would say that I prefer 12" speakers for their sound, but also because you can play just about 90%+ of gigs with two 12s and ~500 watts or so. Not sure you can say the same about two 10" speakers.

But if you stack a pair of 2x10s vertically you'll have a killer stage rig. This takes up more total space, but the actual footprint is smaller than with 12s. One big advantage: getting some speakers up closer to your ears so you can hear yourself in the mix.

 

[dune]

P: NEW – BG-800 Bass Combo Amp “Roadcase” | Phil Jones Bass

Have wanted to try this out for a while.

Based on my recent experience with a PJB BG-450, I don't think it had any "bang" to speak of, and given the cost, most definitely not on a "for the buck" basis. It didn't do anything for me, but it is an incredibly well-made piece of gear/art. Clearly, they've got something going on given how much praise they get here and elsewhere. I'm a lifelong electric only player, having likely spent less than 10 minutes on an upright my entire life. In retrospect, the majority of folks singing its praises in what I was reading were at least doubling on, if not primarily playing upright, though most said it sounded great on their electrics, too. They're definitely going to know whether or not it's transparent in its reproduction of their acoustic tone whereas I can't really do that kind of A/B comparison with an electric. I can only compare it with other amps. Are upright players ever going to be looking for something that's going to push a lot of air? Even as it was praised, I read things like: "Don't expect it to make your pant legs flap." or "doesn't push air like a bigger cabinet" and other similar phrases. At the end of the day, it just sounded lifeless and flat to me. Who knows? Maybe that's what true transparency sounds like. I don't doubt it (as I said, the upright guys are going to KNOW). I think it's more of a "Transparency in an electric bass amp just isn't my bag." I really wanted to love the BG-450, but when I was playing through it, I just wanted to stop playing through it and plug back into my Stage 800. What I am now pondering is the idea that (stating the obvious maybe, but that's never stopped me before) for electric bass the amp is an integral part of the sound and after 45+ years of playing, I'm too used to amps that impart tonal coloration to be able to go without that and enjoy true transparency. It may also be that I'm just not a 5" drivers (primary) kind of guy. Given PJB's reputation, this is most definitely a case of: "It's not you, it's me."

 

[porterbass]

Interesting. Not too much bigger than stacked 121 cabs. I wonder how loud that 600 watts really gets through those small drivers. For what it's worth, my 70 watt PJB Double Four, is probably not much louder than my 15watt Crate BX15 practice amp. I know, different speaker sizes and all will play a factor and difference in watts need to be massive for a difference in decibels. Definitely not disappointed in the Double Four though. Didn't buy it to be a loud amp.

I've owned most of the PJB combo and head/cab products over the years other than their large cabinets. A couple of things I've observed (and that others here have commented on) is that the volume on the PJB gear works different than most others. You can set the volume much higher (even at 10) in most instances without clipping. The array of small speakers also cut through in the mix in many rooms, providing a lot of definition in the bass without being boomy.

I've also owned a Double Four for many years for practice at home. I can put a preamp in front of it and it will get a ton louder without clipping. I've also found that the Double Four fullness and volume really depends on placement because of the rear passive radiator. It gets a lot louder and more full-sounding when placed by a wall or corner vs sitting out in a room.

(Btw, I wrote this for others reading this thread, not necessarily for you @IAMPK. This is a good thread that I'm following...and as much as I love the PJB gear, I also have really liked some 12" combos I've had in the past, including the Genz Benz Shuttle 6-12T.)

 

[IAMPK]

Oh, I should also note, and this may be silly, I didn't get the Ampeg SVT-210AV because it only uses 1/4" jacks. No Speakons.

I didn't get the BBC cabs because I can't stop laughing at the name.

It gave me a chuckle for sure

 

[porterbass]

Based on my recent experience with a PJB BG-450, I don't think it had any "bang" to speak of, and given the cost, most definitely not on a "for the buck" basis. It didn't do anything for me, but it is an incredibly well-made piece of gear/art. Clearly, they've got something going on given how much praise they get here and elsewhere. I'm a lifelong electric only player, having likely spent less than 10 minutes on an upright my entire life. In retrospect, the majority of folks singing its praises in what I was reading were at least doubling on, if not primarily playing upright, though most said it sounded great on their electrics, too. They're definitely going to know whether or not it's transparent in its reproduction of their acoustic tone whereas I can't really do that kind of A/B comparison with an electric. I can only compare it with other amps. Are upright players ever going to be looking for something that's going to push a lot of air? Even as it was praised, I read things like: "Don't expect it to make your pant legs flap." or "doesn't push air like a bigger cabinet" and other similar phrases. At the end of the day, it just sounded lifeless and flat to me. Who knows? Maybe that's what true transparency sounds like. I don't doubt it (as I said, the upright guys are going to KNOW). I think it's more of a "Transparency in an electric bass amp just isn't my bag." I really wanted to love the BG-450, but when I was playing through it, I just wanted to stop playing through it and plug back into my Stage 800. What I am now pondering is the idea that (stating the obvious maybe, but that's never stopped me before) for electric bass the amp is an integral part of the sound and after 45+ years of playing, I'm too used to amps that impart tonal coloration to be able to go without that and enjoy true transparency. It may also be that I'm just not a 5" drivers (primary) kind of guy. Given PJB's reputation, this is most definitely a case of: "It's not you, it's me."

@dune I'm curious if you used the BG-450 along with another cabinet or on its own? Doesn't the Stage 800 have two 10" drivers and 800 watts? Thanks!

 

[IAMPK]

I've owned most of the PJB combo and head/cab products over the years other than their large cabinets. A couple of things I've observed (and that others here have commented on) is that the volume on the PJB gear works different than most others. You can set the volume much higher (even at 10) in most instances without clipping. The array of small speakers also cut through in the mix in many rooms, providing a lot of definition in the bass without being boomy.

I've also owned a Double Four for many years for practice at home. I can put a preamp in front of it and it will get a ton louder without clipping. I've also found that the Double Four fullness and volume really depends on placement because of the rear passive radiator. It gets a lot louder and more full-sounding when placed by a wall or corner vs sitting out in a room.

(Btw, I wrote this for others reading this thread, not necessarily for you @IAMPK. This is a good thread that I'm following...and as much as I love the PJB gear, I also have really liked some 12" combos I've had in the past, including the Genz Benz Shuttle 6-12T.)

Yes, the PJB D4 is impressive in how clean it is at close to max volume. I'll have to try it with a preamp, but honestly, I'm not sure when I'll need it to be that loud, but could be useful in a pinch. I mainly bought it for the portability and ability to use with a battery.

I have that as my practice/acoustic jam amp, and my GK MB212-ii as my big amp. Just trying to figure out what I can do as an in between, but I feel like the majority of single 12" cabs and combos that I look at are barely smaller than the GK in floorspace (14.5" by 19"). For example the Aguilar SL112 and Mesa Subway 112s are basically the same footprint as the 212 combo. I'm sure there are differences in sound and tone that the Mesa and Aggie can provide over the GK, but for my needs, size matters too.

 

[Thumpin6string]

What is the biggest sound you can get out of the smallest package? I would say that I prefer 12" speakers for their sound, but also because you can play just about 90%+ of gigs with two 12s and ~500 watts or so. Not sure you can say the same about two 10" speakers.

Looking around, it looks like the Markbass line is smallest thing you can get at a reasonable price. Specifically, their Mini CMD 121 or a NY 121 cab. 15" x 14" in floorspace, or car space, is pretty hard to beat.

I also see GR Bass with extremely small combos, but they are harder to come by in the states and usually fetch a fair premium.

Any other contenders, even expensive ones, that I shouldn't leave in my blind spot?

My Epifani UL210 handles 600 watts. That said, if you prefer 12s, the Epifani UL112 Are only 25 pounds and put out the bass. I run my Genzler MG800 into my Epifani UL210/UL112 stack and it can rock a house off its foundation. Whole rig is under 70 pounds.

 

[RColie]

What is the biggest sound you can get out of the smallest package? I would say that I prefer 12" speakers for their sound, but also because you can play just about 90%+ of gigs with two 12s and ~500 watts or so. Not sure you can say the same about two 10" speakers.

Looking around, it looks like the Markbass line is smallest thing you can get at a reasonable price. Specifically, their Mini CMD 121 or a NY 121 cab. 15" x 14" in floorspace, or car space, is pretty hard to beat.

I also see GR Bass with extremely small combos, but they are harder to come by in the states and usually fetch a fair premium.

Any other contenders, even expensive ones, that I shouldn't leave in my blind spot?

I would add the Genzler MG12T-V to your list. The footprint is 16 x 14.5, and the cab is oriented vertically. I've used a stack of 2 to cover a wide range of venues, and just one of them puts out a lot of sound. Great quality, sound, and customer service. And you can attach a Genzler head to make it a "combo".

I'm not sure what you mean by liking 12" speakers for their sound. I've played 12" cabs from Epifani, Bergantino (3 different models), Mesa Subway, Genz Benz (2 different models) and Genzler (3 different models) and they all sound different to my ears. Even the different models within a manufacturer don't sound the same.

Anyway, check out the Genzler MG12T-V. Hope this helps.

 

[agedhorse]

Smaller drivers are definitely not as efficient. However, 8 of them in series/parallel gives a 9dB (factor of ~3x) rise inn efficiency for the cab so it'll still get loud. Probably still not as loud as a comparable 610 though. Much less beaming with small speakers.

Hold on a minute, by the third doubling of driver numbers you aren't going to achieve 9dB of increase in SPL.

In reality, you may get close to 3dB with the first doubling, less than that with the second doubling and quite a bit less with the third doubling because the energy becomes less perfectly coupled. I would expect about 6 or maybe 7 dB maximum rather than 9dB due to acoustic coupling.

 

[Gervais Cote]

I don’t really like the look and the sound but I’ve been very impressed by a single Kevlar 15" combo from Markbass in a blues show a few years ago. That little cube was able to push it hard.

 

[OkayistBassist]

Quilter Bass Block head + Bass Dock cabinets.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

I think the BBC cabs are the best for small footprint, loudness but seems I can only find used ones for sale..I use it instead of my boogie cabs.

The company is out of business or at least stopped their website and posting anything online.

 

[chris1327]

i went on the same search as the op a few years ago and this is what i ended up with, the schroeder 1212l. i have the 800w version, but there’s also a 1000w version… it’s the older model with the second 12 slanted back into the cab so it’s really small, easily carried in one hand, and the power is surprising for the size. there are trade offs of course, but if you’re looking for lightweight bang for the buck, definitely take a look!

 

[MultiScaleMale]

You mention "smallest footprint" and cite the Markbass 12" combo's 14"x15" dimension. Is it just space on the stage that you're concerned with and it can go higher or do you want to limit yourself to a single cab/combo?

 

[nonohmic]

If you're talking actual footprint as in the area of the floor, then a RevSound 28V would be hard to beat.

 

[coy garcia]

The company is out of business or at least stopped their website and posting anything online.

too bad... I run into other bass players in the wild using them but have yet to find one that doesn't love it. I just have the 112 tank and would buy it again every time.

 

[dune]

@dune I'm curious if you used the BG-450 along with another cabinet or on its own? Doesn't the Stage 800 have two 10" drivers and 800 watts? Thanks!

I did not try the PJB BG-450 with any other cabinets since I wanted it as a stand-alone solution - the ultimate "grab and go" if you will.
The Stage 800 does indeed have two 10" drivers, although since I don't have an extension cabinet, I think it only produces 400 watts. I also have a SWR Redhead and a Positive Grid Spark40. My personal experience is that all of my basses seemed less "alive" (responsive) through the BG-450 than through any of those other amps. Even my wife commented on it sounding "lifeless".
Obviously PJB amps have a huge and loyal following and their positive reviews massively outnumber the negative.
I really wanted to love it, but I just didn't. It was so nicely crafted, extremely solid and robust - and it's a cube!!!
But given what I've been conditioned (or conditioned myself) to prefer, it just wasn't a good fit for me,

 

[ole Jason]

Not cheap but GR Bass and Barefaced are unbeatable for this use case.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

too bad... I run into other bass players in the wild using them but have yet to find one that doesn't love it. I just have the 112 tank and would buy it again every time.

I had two, but sold them. Tolex always peeled off.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Smallest footprint was probably when whatever vertical cab I was using and I put the head on the floor vertically, not blocking any ventilation, and the guitar player put his amp on top of my cab and then the mixer went on top of his amp.