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Boutique 3-way 115 and 215 on a budget

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Hey greenboy (or others),

I'm curious about the frequency response. Carvin claims +/- 3db down to 52 hz, and -10 db at 46 hz. Yet you're hearing great things on low low low notes, correct?

I know that frequency response numbers are pretty meaningless without the true spl curves available, and that different cab makers probably do different little 'tricks' to make their numbers look good. And I also know, yes, that we hear the overtones, etc., etc. I'm just trying to understand how this stuff works, and how the numbers relate (or don't relate, more likely?) to real-world performance ...

Regards,
Liam
 
I don't know for sure which it is. I assume it's trapeziod. But I'll probably drop a 3015 (LF?) in it.

I've played Accugrove cabinets before and that's what I'm trying to achieve, without paying $1000.00 or more.
A seemingly endless tight bottom with super smooth, accurate mids and highs. That's the goal...
 
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I'm curious about the frequency response. Carvin claims +/- 3db down to 52 hz, and -10 db at 46 hz. Yet you're hearing great things on low low low notes, correct?

Yeah, as far as numbers go those are relatively accurate. Using the HONESTIFIER™ (WinISD Pro with all the right driver profiles) I can get something like that though one never knows where the center line is for the provided specs unless there is also a graph.

I use low B, and low A below that, and some of those V-Bass patches also have a subharmonic content or a lot of fundamental. A couple of things make or break a cab for this type of use:

1) does overexcursion and speaker unloading happen easily? If so, no go. It's not only got to sound rich, it's got to do it when more wattage is applied.

2) Everything is relative. If there is a lot of upper-mid spiking like 2-by-10 cab tends to have, it makes the actual sub-100 Hz content obviously lacking unless there is a mid-bass hump there to fool some ears. If there is a lower-mid scoop it can make the bass sound louder, but again, that's just a relative balance issue. So people often percieve a relative lack or abundance of one thing based on other areas of the spectrum being used as comparison.

I know that frequency response numbers are pretty meaningless without the true spl curves available, and that different cab makers probably do different little 'tricks' to make their numbers look good.

Yes, for almost any bass cab the numbers are totally meaningless and if there was any measurement actually done it certainly was not done on a level playing field using industry standard measurement techniques. The numbers might as well be pulled out of thin air and give little indication of the tonality or the true real-world performance. That's one reason I like to gnab T-S parameters of woofers for any cabs I am interested in and get a creduility check using the HONESTIFIER™ ; }

And I also know, yes, that we hear the overtones, etc., etc. I'm just trying to understand how this stuff works, and how the numbers relate (or don't relate, more likely?) to real-world performance ...

I think what helped me was working with a lot of PA gear over the decades, and doing studio gear purchases and engineering. When I got my first bass and rig back in '98 I went through an eye-opening research phase that made me realize that bass cab manufactuers might as well be claiming to do cold fusion using a glass of water and a tab of Alka Seltzer. Nothing added up, it was all flim-flam and wishful thinking predicated on (among other things) the tendency of a lot of ears a lot of times thinking they were hearing 40 Hz when they were actually hearing 80 and 120 Hz.

So while this Carvin spec seems like it means less low end, it ain't necessarily so, to quote an old song.
 
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Have you used these as actual PA cabs? Id love to hear how they sound there.

I haven't, Dave - since I only have one. But since I've used a lot of PA cabs, sometimes in combination with subwoofers, as bass rigs, I have no reason to believe they wouldn't do a lot better than maybe anything else in the price range. For one thing, a lot of cheapie two-ways have a big gap in polar response between the woofer and the tweeter/horn, and often have so little ability to deal with much signal below 100-150 Hz since the assumption is that one would use subwoofers and active crossover if one desired to not blow up their woofers. These are a happy compromise for actually having some lows. And being three-way really takes them up a notch as far as better dispersion and power handling is concerned - especially if bi-amping.

I'd also consider the self-powered tri-amp version if I was buying for PA. I also notice the Carvin self-powered 700-watt subwoofwers these will pole-mount on are going real cheap right now.
 
Thought I'd post a quickie photo. With four-space SKB on top the rack sides line up with the cab very nicely, and the whole rig is only about 38" tall. Not bad for a cab that actually has more internal volume than some of the 115 cabs out there - a key to getting a little more bass extension and a more manageable and articulate mid-bass.

Usually the rack has three open spaces - or two open spaces when I've got a Rane DC24 crossover/swissarmyknife with me - to store/schlep the V-Bass and cables and bass stand etc. But I just stuck my Peavey FLS 31-band monitor EQ in there to observe which frequency bands my bass and V-Bass patches are strongest for various notes over time, and using different hand techniques. The LED above each band glows brighter past a certain threshold, which gives a good idea what a note's actual energy content is in overtones and fundamental. A very cool tool for this, and for EQing monitor mixes!

Anyway, the cab and the 14.2 pound Peavey DPC-1400X power amp and either my V-Bass or my Peavey Max preamp have become my new "medium-small rig" : }

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Have you gigged with the 1x15 and tweeter Carvin cab? For my needs this seems like the cab to get, as i need low punchy bass with sudden bursts of popping. Any thoughts, greenboy?
 
Have you gigged with the 1x15 and tweeter Carvin cab? For my needs this seems like the cab to get, as i need low punchy bass with sudden bursts of popping. Any thoughts, greenboy?

No. But I don't care for 2-way cabs with 15" woofers unless they

1) possess at least 3 cf of internal internal volume if being used without subwoofer

2) are crossed over fairly low with a larger-format horn flare so that polar frequency response does not have a huge gap.

The downside of a larger woofer is that it has poor upper-midrange response that makes two-way designs around them impractical. If one is wanting to slap/pop they either need a three-way design with more internal volume, or a better compression driver/horn lense combination, or a two-way design with multiple tens (or possibly twelves) just to have less obvious holes in the upper midrange response.

Of course there are some who will disagree : }
 
This thread does not bode well for my wallet... I'm tempted to take my lumps and spend a few nights on the couch to try one of these. I use a Mesa 400+ and a powerhouse 212 cab. I like it, but I can't help but feel there is just a little... missing. In the past, I've always been a 115+410 guy... but my back told me to downsize. Any thoughts on how this cab might work with the 400+? I really like your setup with the crossover as well. I have a couple spare power amps laying around, so that might be worth a shot as well. Anyhow, thanks much for your excellent review. One of the best I've read yet!
 
Hey, greenboy,

Have you played through any Accugroove cabs, so that you could sort of directly compare this setup?

I'm getting more and more curious about this approach ...

All the best,
Liam
 
GreenBoy,

Thanks for an insightful and thorough review.

I've been pondering adding a 215 to my cab-bage arsenal - I don't know if you read this thread http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=340436&highlight=marc about the Dr Bass 215 it is ~$300 more than the similar Carvin cab and about 30lbs lighter, it is already loaded with neo drivers, has the tilt back wheels…
Considering the above, it would seem that by the time you mod the Carvin you’ll spend close to the $850 (shipped) of the Dr Bass – your thoughts?
 
I've been pondering adding a 215 to my cab-bage arsenal - I don't know if you read this thread http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=340436&highlight=marc about the Dr Bass 215

Yes, atrapp, I saw it.

it is ~$300 more than the similar Carvin cab and about 30lbs lighter, it is already loaded with neo drivers, has the tilt back wheels…

One thing I've mentioned in this thread and others is I think a lot of the 115 and 215 cabs I've seen have internal volumes that I consider too small for the tonal ideal I prefer, and to really deal with low B/A Hipshot, or low F#0 below that. Really the Carvin PA cabs are about as small as you can go with the affordable 3015LF and not be wasting what its advantages are as a driver.

So part of my search as either a builder or a consumer is to find as light a weight as possible WITHOUT going below a certain threshold of internal volume, which translates into where the low-end rolloff really occurs, and often how much midbass hump can be avoided for a tighter more accurate sound, especially when turned up.

And when I looked at that Dr Bass photo I wasn't seeing the dimensions that would give me a minimum of 3.2 cubic feet for each 15" woofer. I've had a few fifteen cabs that would have been better suited to twelves, so I didn't want to go there again.

The other thing I noticed concerns only one 6.5" driver. I haven't seen a single 6.5" driver that had both the power handling and the sensitivity to balance well with TWO fifteens in what I consider an optimumly flat response curve, and still handle lots and lots of watts - especially if favoring midrange. Seems like the least you can get by with for flatness is one 6.5" driver per 15" driver - unless perhaps if you were using Eighteen Sound's very nice 6ND410, and even then I really wonder...

Considering the above, it would seem that by the time you mod the Carvin you’ll spend close to the $850 (shipped) of the Dr Bass – your thoughts?

True. I would be very close to $850 with the LS1523, but I also know I'd have a flatter midrange and blend into the treble, more power handling in the midrange, and the less mid-bass humped and smoother low-end extension that works better for me.

...Also, I know I can trust my specs/numbers to tell the whole story, knowing the drivers and the dimensions and the verified weight of my LS3105.

It's all tradeoffs - something I learned many moons ago in sound reinforcement ; }
 
Have you played through any Accugroove cabs, so that you could sort of directly compare this setup?

Yes, a couple/few years ago I played an El Whappo. Time and subjectivity would render my impressions rather vague, but I was impressed. Since I had been talking to Mark many hours on the phone and on a couple other forums before Accugrooves ever hit the market (making my ideas and preferences clear at that time), I was curious - though even at cost+shipping I really didn't want to spring for one for myself since I already had a smokin' deluxe multi-way cab with PA-like design philosphy... but I did want to hear what one was like.

Anyway. How are they similar? Mostly because they are not two-way designs, there are some of the same advantages in choosing drivers to represent bass and midrange bandpass separately - instead of expecting that one driver can reach low and also pretty high and be smooth in response when doing so. Also, better polar response comes from that apporach, which I think improves stage monitoring/band mixes.

Going by memory both sound very rich and have detailed midranges and punch (whatever that means), more coherent and focused than other cabs that give that sense of depth. I'd say the biggest difference is that these are designed with a better vertical profile for the number of components, as tall as is practical, and for many stages I consider that an advantage. The other advantage is likely that the Carvin neo compression driver and 90x60 horn flare while sounding smooth is also capable of a lot more output, which I consider a plus for the type of player who might feel that most Accugrooves tend to have shy top ends.
 
The package arrived today.

Here's some pic's

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We'll it's built like a brick. All the screws were glued in so it was a little tough to get the screws out to take it apart.

Some of you EE types perhaps can glean some info from the pictures.
I'm engineer, but not an electrical engineer. I would be interested in more information about the crossover.

You can see from the pictures the mid range is in a separate enclosure.

How does it sound?

In a word GREAT!!!

I'm running a Carvin HD900 with a Aguilar DB659 and a Zoom B2 pedal.

I perceive it to be louder than my 2 Aggie GS112's or my Aggie S410. It seems to have more bass, more mids and more treble than either of the previously mentioned cabs.

One thing that easy to hear is the difference between loud and soft. I can play very, very, very softly and have no trouble being heard clearly. With my other cabs I either have to turn up the volume or play harder for soft dynamics to heard.

I has more punch than either of the two. It seems more efficient than the others. With everything flat it sounds great. I don't need to tweak anything to get my sound. If anything I need to turn the bass down (something I never had to do before).

I'm seriously thinking about buying a crossover and doing the bi amp thing. Any recommendation for a crossover GB?

The LS1503 could easily replace every bass cabinet I have. But I'll never surrender my GS112's. I could use the 1503 on every gig I play.

I'll have more impressions later...
 
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Once upon a time I plugged my Hartke 7000 into 2) Community 115's and 2) Community 118's. That... was.... impressive.

:D

Really there is no shame in using PA Cabs for a bass rig. When you get onto bigger stages and care more about your sound in the front of house, its a great way to know exactly what is coming out of the speakers.

Bass cabs tend to color the sound a lot, whether for better or worse.
 
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