Double Bass Bow control when slurring from higher pitch to lower pitch

[Mark_T]

I have been dealing with a technical issue lately while I work on some (in my opinion) trickier solo repertoire and was curious if people had thoughts about it - either frustrations or solutions. The general situation is when slurring two (or more) notes together where the second pitch is a minor third or more below the first pitch. In a number of situations, I find the second pitch frequently will not speak properly when I release the finger stopping the higher pitch, even if the string is activated and the bass is resonating.

There are a number of factors to consider here. Previous teachers of mine have advised that when playing more than one pitch on a single bow, the bow placement should reflect the ideal position for the highest pitch in the sequence of notes (eg, son premier for the highest pitch, if you're following Rabbath's advice). This is generally my first approach when encountering this problem, but it seems to be insufficient at least some unacceptably frequent percent of the time.

With some fiddling around over the last few days, I've experimented with a few other variables, including: more rosin, alternative bow angles (ranging from tip up to level, to tip down), closer to the bridge, closer to the fingerboard, etc.

In one passage (the opening of the Arpeggione sonata), I added some left-hand pulloffs to keep the string ringing. That surprisingly doesn't fix the problem, but has the downside of being slightly audible, which is not really musical in context.

I also looked a bit at my left hand - in a few cases, I discovered that the lower pitch was a harmonic when the upper pitch was stopped - that seems to exacerbate the problem and I can get better results by stopping the lower pitch too, at the expense of some convenience. I also noticed that occasionally I maybe didn't have the lower pitch all the way pressed down, and being deliberate about getting the lower pitch fully depressed in advance of releasing the upper pitch did help.

However, I'm still having a bit of trouble.

So far, the most productive change I've made has been to rotate the bow such that I am using flatter hair as I release the higher pitch. I'm thinking that this may have a few effects. First, it means the band of hair is overall grabbier. Secondarily, it probably means at least some of the hair is contacting the string closer to the proper son premier partial, so I'm driving the string a little closer to the node where the string wants to resonate.

A good place to play with this is exercise 5 in the second Rabbath book (on page 33 in my copy). About midway down, the slurs go from the octave G to (e.g.) a C#, and these often don't speak well for me.

Curious if this is something other people have dealt with. I have a lesson next week and plan to discuss it with my teacher then. But by now I've been playing and studying for decades so I am used to being self-sufficient with this kind of thing.

 

[jallenbass]

Can you post a video demonstrating this issue?

 

[the_Ryan]

Couple clarifying questions:

Are there specific fingerings where this happens, i.e. does it happen when starting from a higher-numbered finger and ending on a lower-numbered finger (like a 3-1 fingering going from "14th fret" A to block position E), shifting on one finger, and/or going from a lower-numbered finger and ending on a higher-numbered finger (1-4 from A down to E)? Furthermore, during the shifts where you go from a higher-numbered finger to a lower-numbered finger, are you shifting on the old finger (a "classical shift" to borrow a Simon Fischer-ism), shifting on the new finger ("romantic shift"), or changing fingers during the shift ("combination shift")? And if descending going from a lower finger to a higher finger (an exchange shift), are you doing a finger substitution (e.g. playing A with 1, shifting down and reaching E with 1, and then changing fingers to 4), going below the note (playing A with 1, shifting down to D with 1, then stopping E with 4), or changing fingers during the shift instead of right at the end?

Although now that I'm rereading the OP, I realize the passage in question (Rabbath book 2 page 33) doesn't involve shifting at all (－‸ლ).

In the right hand, it's less of a bow placement issue and more related to bow speed: in the page 33 passage, the C# and the D harmonic require a decent amount more bow speed than the G harmonic regardless of the bow placement between the fingerboard and bridge, skew of the stick, tilt of the hair, etc., and even in fast slurred passages like page 33 care needs to be taken to make sure that each note has the proper bow speed at a slow tempo, and then by slowly increasing the tempo hopefully the arm will be able to make that micro-adjustment in context, although it definitely sounds easier than it actually is.

 

[garrett2]

Did you find this to be a problem when playing tricky repertoire other than the Schubert? For example Bottesini is full of these slurs.

 

[Mark_T]

Thanks for all the thoughts everyone. My practice session yesterday was a little shorter than usual and bisected by kid pickup duties, so I didn't get around to setting up a camera and taking a video. Hoping to do that today.

It's been a while since I was working on Bottesini and I don't have specific memories of having this problem there, but I also know it's not a new challenge for me, just something that crops up occasionally.

Here are some examples with music:

This is in the opening of the Arpeggione (1st mvt). That descending 3-note slur in the second bar is often problematic. There is a shift there down to the E flat, but I have the other notes in one position.

This is a bit later on in the 1st movement. Here, the 3-thumb figures can be problematic, but I found that I mostly just have to be careful to make sure the thumb is all the way down (I have a tendency to release it slightly when I cross the string for the 2-note slur on the D string).

This is from that Rabbath exercise. Going from the B# to the G (in one position) can be problematic.

I did do some playing around with bow speed, too, and that did seem to make a difference but I need to work on it a bit more to see if that is "the" solution or part of it.

Here's one more from the Arpeggione (sorry, just remembered this). This is like the 3rd bar of the bass entrance, and I'm playing the G on the open string. This is where I've been trying an LH PO because the D and E-flat speak fine but when I release the finger, the G sometimes doesn't want to go right away.

 

[Co.]

I think I get your issue.
When I have stuff like that happen, 90% of the time, the solution is slowing the bow down to the right speed for the lower note. Really easy in a way, but it took me quite some time, to figure it out. Often, this is much more elegant than a more active left hand articulation, that could break the line or draw too much attention to itself.

 

[crd]

I have been dealing with a technical issue lately while I work on some (in my opinion) trickier solo repertoire and was curious if people had thoughts about it - either frustrations or solutions. The general situation is when slurring two (or more) notes together where the second pitch is a minor third or more below the first pitch. In a number of situations, I find the second pitch frequently will not speak properly when I release the finger stopping the higher pitch, even if the string is activated and the bass is resonating.

There are a number of factors to consider here. Previous teachers of mine have advised that when playing more than one pitch on a single bow, the bow placement should reflect the ideal position for the highest pitch in the sequence of notes (eg, son premier for the highest pitch, if you're following Rabbath's advice). This is generally my first approach when encountering this problem, but it seems to be insufficient at least some unacceptably frequent percent of the time.

With some fiddling around over the last few days, I've experimented with a few other variables, including: more rosin, alternative bow angles (ranging from tip up to level, to tip down), closer to the bridge, closer to the fingerboard, etc.

In one passage (the opening of the Arpeggione sonata), I added some left-hand pulloffs to keep the string ringing. That surprisingly doesn't fix the problem, but has the downside of being slightly audible, which is not really musical in context.

I also looked a bit at my left hand - in a few cases, I discovered that the lower pitch was a harmonic when the upper pitch was stopped - that seems to exacerbate the problem and I can get better results by stopping the lower pitch too, at the expense of some convenience. I also noticed that occasionally I maybe didn't have the lower pitch all the way pressed down, and being deliberate about getting the lower pitch fully depressed in advance of releasing the upper pitch did help.

However, I'm still having a bit of trouble.

So far, the most productive change I've made has been to rotate the bow such that I am using flatter hair as I release the higher pitch. I'm thinking that this may have a few effects. First, it means the band of hair is overall grabbier. Secondarily, it probably means at least some of the hair is contacting the string closer to the proper son premier partial, so I'm driving the string a little closer to the node where the string wants to resonate.

A good place to play with this is exercise 5 in the second Rabbath book (on page 33 in my copy). About midway down, the slurs go from the octave G to (e.g.) a C#, and these often don't speak well for me.

Curious if this is something other people have dealt with. I have a lesson next week and plan to discuss it with my teacher then. But by now I've been playing and studying for decades so I am used to being self-sufficient with this kind of thing.

Gary Karr's "Vomit" exercise is designed to help with this technical issue.

Low notes = slow bow, high Notes = faster bow, while the bow remains in the same position. Bow placement changes the timbre and can accomplish the same thing but how could you change the bow placement quick enough to play a series of eighth notes in different ranges on one string? If you are playing all in one position the Rabbath approach works well. Especially if you are using thin strings similar to what he uses.

 

[AGCurry]

Others have implied this point in their answers:
When I asked my teacher a couple of years ago about the same issue, his answer was that I should stop the bow before playing the second note. Obviously, it must be a split-second pause, and it's not easy. For me, I think of it more as making sure the bow "plucks" the string as though it were not in the middle of a slur. It's worst for me when the note is an open string; it's liable to sound the harmonic.

 

[Mark_T]

I feel pretty self-conscious sharing these because there's a lot of room for improvement here.

The first one is me repeatedly squawking on a B♭ to G on the G string, playing with bow angle to try and control it:



The second one is the opening of the Arpeggione sonata. You can hear that same sound crop up in a few places, although it's better controlled here:

 

[Don Kasper]

The first one is me repeatedly squawking on a B♭ to G on the G string, playing with bow angle to try and control it:

I see/hear the following:
1. The contact point (where the bow is placed) is too far NORTH toward the fingerboard. For the register of those 2 notes, you should be somewhere near the midpoint (midway between the bridge and end of the fingerboard.) The "angle" of the bow is not as crucial as the contact point for sound production.
2. Your bow is "skating" (losing contact with the string.) This could be the result of not enough, (or inconsistent) right arm "weight" into the string, lack of rosin, too fast of bow speed, or a combination of all of the above.
I admire your courage in asking for help/opinions and posting video/audio.
IMFO, of course.
Let's see what others may have to offer. There are a few very accomplished "arco" members on TB.
Good Luck.
Thanks.

 

[damonsmith]

To expand on what @AGCurry says: A slur ultimately means to not change bow direction - there is room for tiny stops or repositioning if you must - though it is best to try make them imperceptible.
As @Don Kasper says, you are losing the fundamental due to being to close to the fingerboard (Sul tasto).
The optimal bow speed for a note to really sing needs to be decided by the pitch itself - not your arm. Once you start or in the case of a slur, transfer energy to, a note you need to let the note push the bow. let your arm drop its weight in the note, but keep it loose so the note can push the bow.
There are times for a faster bow for rhythmic "bass" parts, but not in Bottesini.

 

[Co.]

As I see and hear it, changing the angle of the bow won't help.
Again, it is a bow that is too fast or too light for the lower note. Too fast and too light is actually the same, given you don't change the bow placement. How you adress it will result in a different dynamic. If you adress it with more weight, you will get a jump in volume. So slowing the bow down (perhaps with a tiny gap/stop in between the notes, as Damon Smith writes) might be a better solution.
But in general, you might try playing with more weight and a closer to the bridge (as Don Kasper wrote). Even if you are not into that kind of sound, you are certainly going to learn a lot by doing so. If you do not like to play close to the bridge, you might actually play close to the bridge and try to get warmest, least scratchy sound possible. Don't go for a penetrating, soloistic sound. Just a "normal" bass sound, but much more dense and firm than you are used to, not louder or brighter. You will immediately feel in your, when the hairs are loosing contact on certain notes. These are the notes, where you have to slow the down. Once learned, you can apply this to all kinds of other contact points.

 

[jj.833]

I have nothing much to add, except that I really like your playing!

Sorry if I state the obvious: Every time when the bow is not obeying me, I get back to repeat some of the basic technical excersises. The 1st grader stuff that everyone hopes never to do again. I find that on second (third...) pass those excersises are very easy, and yet revealing as to identifying the basic technical (and musical) mistakes I keep doing. I wouldn't use Rabbath for that however, in my opinion Rabbath's bow techniques are not very well elaborated, at least for German bow.

 

[Don Hergert]

@damonsmith has suggested using other words in other posts -- try intentionally making the undesirable sounds, so you can know exactly what makes them happen. Then you can specifically work on not making them happen.

I consider this inspired. Even in my tiny tiny arco experience, this has helped me a lot. (And thank you Damon!)

 

[neilG]

Besides all the advice on sound given by others, I'd re-think that fingering in the second measure. Who's edition is this?

 

[Mark_T]

Besides all the advice on sound given by others, I'd re-think that fingering in the second measure. Who's edition is this?

Mine, actually. If I work on something long enough, I usually end up making my own so I can avoid putting chickenscratch all over. I have a number of editions that I'm using as references - one by Tim Cobb, one by Stuart Sankey, and I have an annotated copy of Sankey's with notes from my teacher. I refer back to them and make notes during practice and then go update my own version to reflect whatever my current thinking is.

If you're referring to the second bar of the first example (I think that's bar 20 of the piece), my fingering is pretty close to what Stuart Sankey suggests. Tim Cobb does it a little differently.

 

[neilG]

Ack, you made me practice this piece for the first time in decades. Here's some food for thought.

 

[damonsmith]

Mine, actually. If I work on something long enough, I usually end up making my own so I can avoid putting chickenscratch all over. I have a number of editions that I'm using as references - one by Tim Cobb, one by Stuart Sankey, and I have an annotated copy of Sankey's with notes from my teacher. I refer back to them and make notes during practice and then go update my own version to reflect whatever my current thinking is.

If you're referring to the second bar of the first example (I think that's bar 20 of the piece), my fingering is pretty close to what Stuart Sankey suggests. Tim Cobb does it a little differently.

Sankey was obviously great, I think Cobb with probably be more efficient and closer to current collective thoughts on fingering. I'd default to him.

 

[Mark_T]

Sankey was obviously great, I think Cobb with probably be more efficient and closer to current collective thoughts on fingering. I'd default to him.

It's really interesting to compare them. My teacher pointed out a while back that Sankey's fingerings in many ways were ahead of his time and I think I see that as I've been working on this.

Cobb's approach is similar to @neilG's but not quite the same. The last three 8ths of bar 19 go + - 3 - + and he goes upto 3 for the E-flat, but he descends with 1 - 1 - 4, which I take to mean that he's playing the C in position, shifting down to the A-flat with his first finger, and so far as I can tell, shifting again down to catch the lower E-flat with his fourth finger.

My approach may be riskier, but my thumb basically never leaves the A-flat from the end of bar 19 until I need to go down to the E-flat on the last 8th of bar 20. I like the fixed hand frame but it's riskier because it's a bit spread out and the static hand positions means that if I land any of the notes off, the other ones are going to be off and harder to adjust.

I'll try out some of these other options later today and see if any of them are more reliable.

 

[the_Ryan]

Thanks for all the thoughts everyone. My practice session yesterday was a little shorter than usual and bisected by kid pickup duties, so I didn't get around to setting up a camera and taking a video. Hoping to do that today.

It's been a while since I was working on Bottesini and I don't have specific memories of having this problem there, but I also know it's not a new challenge for me, just something that crops up occasionally.

Here are some examples with music:View attachment 7271179

This is in the opening of the Arpeggione (1st mvt). That descending 3-note slur in the second bar is often problematic. There is a shift there down to the E flat, but I have the other notes in one position.

View attachment 7271180
This is a bit later on in the 1st movement. Here, the 3-thumb figures can be problematic, but I found that I mostly just have to be careful to make sure the thumb is all the way down (I have a tendency to release it slightly when I cross the string for the 2-note slur on the D string).

View attachment 7271181

This is from that Rabbath exercise. Going from the B# to the G (in one position) can be problematic.

I did do some playing around with bow speed, too, and that did seem to make a difference but I need to work on it a bit more to see if that is "the" solution or part of it.

Here's one more from the Arpeggione (sorry, just remembered this). This is like the 3rd bar of the bass entrance, and I'm playing the G on the open string. This is where I've been trying an LH PO because the D and E-flat speak fine but when I release the finger, the G sometimes doesn't want to go right away.

View attachment 7271182

Bars 19–21 of the Schubert I think when I played it last I played the C with 3, shifted for the Eb with 3, and shifted back to the C with 3. It's a little clumsy with the double shift, but in my experience it's not too hard to hide the sliding during the thumb > 3 shift from Ab to Eb.

Completely tangential for bars 155–8, I'm a little suspicious of that bowing and the phrasing it creates: the original slurring is either by groups of 4 or 8 eighth notes if I'm remembering it correctly. Regardless of which it is, the intention is for bars 156–158 to be one long phrase, and in my opinion it's harder to make that long phrase slurring in groups of 2 and also slurring across the beats since 2-note slurs tend to emphasize the first note, which when combined with the syncopation will accent the offbeats and de-emphasize the beats. I'm not trying to denigrate the edition at all since I'm sure there are good musical reasons to use that bowing, but for me it's easier to achieve the long melisma by slurring in groups of 4.

If you want to play open Gs for that one bar during the theme, the bow will definitely need to slow down during the course of the D and Eb in order to make the open G speak: this is probably my favorite recording of this sonata, and at this bar you can see how he slows the bow down at the tail end of the E and F before he plays the A's