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Double Bass Bowing shoulder pains

#7
DrewWalden said:
Lately I have been experiencing pain in my bowing shoulder. Any suggestions?
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There are any number of potential causes, and I don't think it's possible to give a "diagnosis" online. You need to talk to a teacher and work something out with them in person.

That said, I can give you a few ideas to think about. It's possible you are carrying some tension in your right shoulder when you play. Have someone put their hands on your shoulders as you play, and see if you're unconsciously raising your shoulders when you play. This is especially common when playing on the G string, and when sitting.

If you have a particularly muscular style of playing, try working with a completely relaxed body and posture. Rather then using your pecs and biceps, employ the natural weight of your bow, arm, and body to control the volume and tone of the bass.

It's possible the stance you've chosen to use when you play is not suited for your anatomy. You could experiment with the height and angling of your bass. If you sit, try standing. If you stand, try sitting.

Finally, it's possible the French bow is not meant for you. If you have very long arms in relation to your torso, perhaps German bow would be more comfortable.

Again, the very best you thing you could do is consult with a professional. A good teacher should be able to identify the problem(s) quickly and will save you a good bit of time and grief.

Good luck.
 
#8
I think your right about my playing position. I just recently started playing with a stool, because I've had several knee surgeries and it's hard to stand through orchestra. I think it probably is the fact that I'm sitting and hold the bow to high, how do I fix this, shorten the bass, make it higher? If I cant figure it out I'll ask my teacher on monday,maybe he want get annoyed with me.
 
#9
DrewWalden said:
I think your right about my playing position. I just recently started playing with a stool, because I've had several knee surgeries and it's hard to stand through orchestra. I think it probably is the fact that I'm sitting and hold the bow to high, how do I fix this, shorten the bass, make it higher? If I cant figure it out I'll ask my teacher on monday,maybe he want get annoyed with me.
Click to expand...

I have no idea how to direct you further. It totally depends on your bass, your bow, your stool, and your anatomy. If your teacher gets annoyed with you, you need a new teacher. These kinds of questions are precisely why people have lessons.
 
#10
Pain is the bodies way of telling you that you are doing something wrong...or that you are doing something "new".

You have stated that the pain started after you changed to seated posture. How much has your practice routine changed other than that? Pay mind to duration of the session(s). Even a slight change of posture can involve different muscles and muscle groups...this can cause pain because they're doing something that they've either never done before, or something they're not used to doing.

Is the pain "dull and achy" or "sharp and stabby"? The former often indicates muscle fatigue, the latter some kind of damage...but this is not always the case.

The only person who is truly qualified to diagnose your problem is a doctor...a doctor who is in front of you, not on an internet chat board.

Yes, your teacher should also be able to give you an idea if the pain or discomfort you are experiencing is "normal"...like the pain we feel in our fingertips when we haven't developed callouses...that is an example of something a teacher will tell you that you just have to "suck up"...but what if you have blisters, and one gets infected? Would you ignore that? Of course not!

I think the others have given you some good advise, especially what Paul said about trying to relax, and your teacher's perceived annoyance! :)

Good luck in sorting this out.

Joe
 
#11
I am all too familiar with this myself. I had suffered from this and neck pain that would radiate down into the shoulder (I am a French bow player myself). It turns out, that too much tension in the shoulder when playing fast passages triggered the pain. The main thing is to play with a relaxed shoulder; try not to shrug. I found that playing in front of a full length mirror really helped with the mechanics of my bow arm and thus the pain. Good luck.
 
#12
DrewWalden said:
I think your right about my playing position. I just recently started playing with a stool, because I've had several knee surgeries and it's hard to stand through orchestra. I think it probably is the fact that I'm sitting and hold the bow to high, how do I fix this, shorten the bass, make it higher? If I cant figure it out I'll ask my teacher on monday,maybe he want get annoyed with me.
Click to expand...
I've had surgery to replace both knees, and have difficulty standing in one place. Still, I play standing up. I keep a stool behind me, and when there are rests in the score, I sit. When you play sitting, you're having to bear the weight of your arm, as opposed to letting it hang when you stand. The higher the stool, the lest lifting of the arm you'll have to do. I will play seated in slow passages, or where there are slow bowing sections (half or whole notes).
At rehearsal, I do alot of sitting, every time the conductor is going to talk for a minute.
These sit-breaks give enough relief to play standing. I hope this helps.
I suspect you are creating tension in your right arm and shoulder. The best way to stop that is with lessons in the Alexander Technique. The problem is that I don't know any teachers in Tennessee. There is one in Jonesborough. I have no idea of her qualifications.
 
#13
First step is to examine your problem with your current teacher. You will quickly discover the depth of their experience and whether they have a range of possible solutions that are appropriate for your height, shape and posture. If I were your teacher I would rebuild your approach to playing seated, starting with the height of your current stool and what happens to your legs when you sit on it. Having ensured that you were comfortable and with good posture then I would bring the bass to you and adjust its height and angles to suit you. You have three dimensional control here, over the length of end pin, turning the bass across your body to be supported more by your left knee, and leaning the bass towards you. Even at 5 feet 7 I like to have both feet on the floor, not with one foot up on the rung of the stool. You can also try putting a guitar footrest under your left foot, to help support the bass without wrecking your posture.

Each hand has a different job to do and must have the freedom to do so. Seated comfortably behind the bass raise both hands from your sides as naturally as possible. Your left arm weight should hang back fro the neck with the elbow no higher than the shoulder. Your right arm should come around into playing position without lifting your shoulder and should rest its weight on the strings through the hook formed by your index finger and thumb in the bow hold. There should be no "crane muscles" in the top of your shoulder or arm part-lifting the bow. If your pain reappears now, without playing a note, where does it hurt? If the pain is just below your shoulder in the front of your arm I would examine your bow hold for perhaps turning in too far on the stick. If the pain is in the back of your shoulder it could indicate posture (Alexander Technique). If the pain is sharp and in the shoulder it could again indicate posture when your shoulder has rotated forward and over, reducing the space between bones for the joint to operate freely and perhaps compressing on a nerve. Again, Alexander Technique would help here.

Right now, if you hold your French bow as though it were a German bow and play across the four strings with long bows, does the pain reappear? At the end of the day, having tried everything else without success, perhaps consider changing bowing styles. This would not take you long because you will already understand the basic principles.

I hate Losing a French Bow player to "THE DARK SIDE".

DP
 
#15
If you didn't have shoulder pain when you stood while playing but since you started sitting you do get shoulder pain then the sitting position is placing more stress on your shoulder. Why? When standing the bowing arms hangs down with the help of gravity. The muscles that hold the arm/bow are working but not a huge amount. When you sit the bass is probably inclined more which means the shoulder has to work harder to raise up the arm/bow - since this is a relatively new position you may be using the shoulder too hard. A good teacher may help you find a way to dial in your sitting position and help you relax the shoulder. One way to test my theory is to play your bass while standing, be attentive to how much muscle tension you feel with bowing. Then sit down and do the same thing. Is the front of your shoulder (deltoid muscle) working hard? The other issue is if you are reaching forward with your shoulder this will also place a lot of stress on the rotator cuff.
 
#16
I need to do a serious upper torso workout to avoid shoulder and neck pain when involved in an intensive practice or performance regimen. None of my teachers guided me on this, but at some point I started doing a free weight workout while hanging upside-down to build up my shoulder muscles. I felt that this was the ticket to being able to put in the 4 hours per day in rehearsal plus six more practicing alone that was necessary to keep up in a modern music school. It worked. And it still works. I don't practice every day anymore, but if I have a heavy symphony coming up on my schedule, I'll do some weight training in addition to looking at the part. The hanging upside-down thing is absolutely not practical, but if you can figure out a way to do it, it is a great help.
 
#17
An exercise routine is certainly a good idea, though the problem many musicians face is that long hours of practice places a lot of stress onto certain structures. Trying to exercise these same structures can be counter productive if the exercises are too intense, etc. A self care routine that includes active recovery - massage, stretching, breathing, posture correction is important. Then add on the strengthening work. The bottom line though is when it comes to playing an instrument for long periods good technique, combined with relaxed precision, combined with rest = a healthy body IMHO
 

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