Double Bass Bridge Setup/Adjustment

[1st Bass]

Arnold;
What book(s) would you recommend?

 

[Turnaround]

Or get a good book.

Suggestions would be welcome. Traeger's book was considered to be the bible for a long time. Now a lot of his methods have been called into question. Who is the new published guru?

 

[robobass]

I wish Arnold would give an opinion on the subject at hand and settle this once and for all, but I can understand why he might choose not to.
As to the book. I haven't read it myself, but have been told that while it has lots of very useful information, it also contains certain things which are contradictory and problematic. I can think of another book, which, while long considered to be the word of God, also contains many things difficult for a modern person to get her head around. My opinion on both these books (and all books, actually) is yes, there is some wisdom there, but you also have to consider other ideas and use your own knowledge and common sense before forming an opinion or making a decision

Edit:
I love it that the second book I cite actually has passages specifically telling you not to do this.

 

[arnoldschnitzer]

Arnold;
What book(s) would you recommend?

Weisshar.

 

[1st Bass]

I have his reference on violin repair, but I haven't found it very helpful on basses...is there another Weisshaar book?

I honestly wish that some contemporary experts would produce books that fit the current "social mores" regarding instrument repair: over on the violin forums, the experts now look askance on much of what Weisshaar wrote, too, so it is a little frustrating to try to discern what "good practice" entails.

 

[GretschWretch]

Heron Allen's violin book was highly regard for a time as well, I believe, until it was discovered he was not actually a violin-maker.

 

[arnoldschnitzer]

I have his reference on violin repair, but I haven't found it very helpful on basses...is there another Weisshaar book?

I honestly wish that some contemporary experts would produce books that fit the current "social mores" regarding instrument repair: over on the violin forums, the experts now look askance on much of what Weisshaar wrote, too, so it is a little frustrating to try to discern what "good practice" entails.

Chet, looks like I have painted myself into a corner. Writing a textbook requires a belief that you, the author, have all the right answers. It requires a huge dose of ego and a lot of hard work. I salute Mr. Traeger for putting it out there for folks to use (and criticize), but much of his information is outdated and sends readers down the path of doing mediocre work on basses, a time-honored tradition that is falling by the wayside. I personally have written most of a book on the subject but have come to the realization that I lack the commensurate ego. However, I'm hoping to get a series of ongoing articles started that will be written by instructors at the Oberlin/VSA Bass Workshop. Yes, I've heard some violin snobs voice concern over some of Weisshaar's methods. Keep in mind that his treatise was written before the $10 million fiddle. If you have stuck your nose in that book, you know it contains tons of valuable information and techniques, most of which scale up nicely for bass work. Bass makers and serious restorers reject the notion that the double bass is a seperate instrument from the violin family, requiring coarser techniques. Peace!

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I have read the Traeger book but don't own it. His opinions on tailpiece and machine weight, wooden endpins etc have some validity but I found most of the book to be of limited value.
My experience working in a shop setting up basses for the last 3+ years has shown me that there is a wide swath of opinion regarding the 'right' way to do something when working with these instruments. Sure, hide glue and generally accepted methods, but there is no ONE way to do this stuff.
Traeger's advice is both opinionated and often wrong.

Is a bass just a bigger violin? It depends who you ask, and who signs my paycheck.

Regarding bridge slots: I file a notch about 1/3 of the string diameter at a right angle to the back of the bridge. A few strokes of the file towards the back and front , noting that the angle of the string will be different on each side finishes it. #2 pencil lubes it. The notches or slots should be only deep enough to hold the string; no deeper.

 

[1st Bass]

Chet, looks like I have painted myself into a corner. Writing a textbook requires a belief that you, the author, have all the right answers. It requires a huge dose of ego and a lot of hard work. I salute Mr. Traeger for putting it out there for folks to use (and criticize), but much of his information is outdated and sends readers down the path of doing mediocre work on basses, a time-honored tradition that is falling by the wayside. I personally have written most of a book on the subject but have come to the realization that I lack the commensurate ego. However, I'm hoping to get a series of ongoing articles started that will be written by instructors at the Oberlin/VSA Bass Workshop. Yes, I've heard some violin snobs voice concern over some of Weisshaar's methods. Keep in mind that his treatise was written before the $10 million fiddle. If you have stuck your nose in that book, you know it contains tons of valuable information and techniques, most of which scale up nicely for bass work. Bass makers and serious restorers reject the notion that the double bass is a seperate instrument from the violin family, requiring coarser techniques. Peace!

Well...if you ever DO complete the book (and, no, it doesn't require the huge ego, just a calm disclaimer that there may be other satisfactory ways, but this is how YOU do it), I would love to jump in line to buy a copy...seriously. Think of it as show-and-tell for luthiers, not an end-all tell-all. I would love to have the privilege of "sitting under your tutelage", even through the pages of that book.

Chet

 

[GretschWretch]

If ego is the only thing preventing Mr. Schnitzer from completing his book, then he may complete it at his earliest convenience and use my name as the author. I just want more of this stuff to read, dang it! I *do* own Traegar's book, and for me much of what he suggests is N/A because I'll never have the shop space or the tooling to attempt it. And some of it does appear a little goofy, or at least too arcane for me to comprehend. But a lot of hat he says seems sensible and accessible. Even for me. And he does give a couple of other people a chance to offer input, which often differs from his approach.

My concern with "series of ongoing articles" is that such series never seem to have staying power. I have lost count of the number of times such series have started up in the ISB's journal, only
to wither and die after only a few issues, I suspect because the contributors just cannot spare the time from their work to keep the process going.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

I'd be interested in hearing specifics where the knowledgeable here disagree with Traeger's methods. In my limited non-luthier experience, one I can point to is his wooden endpin theory. Contrarily, I have found pins of different materials bring different sounds to the table, any of which may be usable depending upon the players preference.

Maybe this should be a thread of its own?

 

[1st Bass]

The biggest help I got from Mr. Traeger was in judging how to shape the bassbar (way different than the rest of the violin family), and with final set-up and adjustment. I was building my first bass, from Peter Chandler's book... and that book offered very little regarding set-up. I turned to Mr. Traeger, and his methods seemed to work pretty well. I wasn't doing any major repairs at the time, though I had done many; I had already decided against "nuts and bolts for heel fractures", so I wasn't swayed by that part, but I have noticed there is a wide dichotomy of opinion on that anyway. I don't do it, but many people do. In other areas, his repair methods seemed quite sound. I don't have to agree with everything he says to get value from his teaching.

Anytime someone writes a how-to book, there will be detractors...I have taught my trade (welding), professionally, for decades, and I am well aware that not everyone agrees about certain things...and welding is a whole lot less "arcane" than the building of violin-family instruments. Usually things can be proven beyond doubt, but new things are always cropping up. Any book completed today will be behind the curve in a few years. That does not detract from the value of a good book now. One just has to be flexible enough to learn to "sort out wheat from chaff", I think. The best welding text-book (widely used in colleges and trade-schools) I have ever seen is a 900-page monster by Larry Jeffus. The irony is that it is riddled with errors, but is still the best book I could recommend for someone trying to improve their technical understanding of the trade.

For the moment, as far as I know, Mr. Traeger's book is in that category. Arnold, I am absolutely serious about desiring a copy of your book. If there is any way I could help you move toward completion, I would do so without hesitation. But you're the man. We are all hoping that you will complete the book.

 

[Don Kasper]

I don't have to agree with everything he says to get value from his teaching.

Yes. Well said.

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I'd be interested in hearing specifics where the knowledgeable here disagree with Traeger's methods. In my limited non-luthier experience, one I can point to is his wooden endpin theory. Contrarily, I have found pins of different materials bring different sounds to the table, any of which may be usable depending upon the players preference.

Maybe this should be a thread of its own?

I have his recommended endpins on both of my basses, finding them to give a warmer and more resonant tone compared to steel. But your experience shows that his dogmatism is just that. I think he recommends a string spacing at the nut of 3/8" for best sound. That's just stupid. Epoxy and lag bolts to secure a neck? Rounded sound posts............
I haven't opened his book in almost 10 years, but these are things I remember.
I'm glad he questioned the status quo and documented his experience. It's a bit much to preach that his way is the only way.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

But your experience shows that his dogmatism is just that...
I'm glad he questioned the status quo and documented his experience. It's a bit much to preach that his way is the only way.

In his prologue Traeger writes "What I have written here are my methods for doing things. They sometimes may not be the best or the traditional methods, but they work for me. Some other useful approaches are described for many of the problems. However, you may find that an entirely different approach works better for you. Use it."

 

[Don Kasper]

In his prologue he writes "What I have written here are my methods for doing things. They sometimes may not be the best or the traditional methods, but they work for me. Some other useful approaches are described for many of the problems. However, you may find that an entirely different approach works better for you. Use it."

Yes. Thank You.

 

[Don Kasper]

Rounded sound posts............

FYI - there is still a flat area on the end of the soundpost. See pg. 38, paragraph #6.
Thanks.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

FYI - there is still a flat area on the end of the soundpost. See pg. 38, paragraph #6.
Thanks.

It's the edges at the end that are rounded.

 

[Don Kasper]

It's the edges at the end that are rounded.

Yes. I thought that was clear...

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I always ease the ends of soundposts but only to minimize plate damage or post splitting when fitting. I believe he wanted to minimize surface area to allow the plates to twist. What I do reduces the surface area by maybe 1mm.

As I said, it's been awhile since I read the book and I have apparently forgotten the prologue statement.